Sub 1:50 800m Training

any half milers out there have sub 1:50 success without doing any type of weights/circuits whatsoever?

that's an interesting question, I hope others will chime in. Of course there will be some outliers, but I believe that the vast majority of 800m runners will only reach their potential with regular weight/circuit sessions. I have not run under 1:50 and am not particularly talented (only had 56 relay split) but I don't belive I would have broken 2 if I had not done regular weight/circuit sessions. Typically for me I did 2 sessions a week focusing on high weight low rep exercises (3-4 reps @ > 80% max) and another session which was very low weight or bodyweight circuit training. over the session I could gather up close to 300-400 reps total of squats, lunges, stepups, and squat jumps. If you build into this type of work carefully I think it can aid in injury prevention and sustainable speed. I am curious as to what others have to say.

I for one would agree with you Loki with one difference. I would go through a phase of circuit training prior to doing any weight training. For me first you develop the ability to move bodyweight around before adding external weight. This approach falls in line with developing the ability to run slower for a longer time before moving onto running faster for a shorter time.

bump

Note by faster over a 400m, I mean running one when rested and in good shape (800m shape) not training for 400m for a year. I know a lot of distance guys who 400m pr is at the end of a workout, 4x400 relay junior year in hs after running the mile, and so on.Pretty cool that his 800/1500 pace are exactly what the old horwill 4 sec rule predicts.

Take the case of a 20 year old male who started training at 17, has been training for the 800/1500 since then (with an emphasis on 1500-type training), and has current PB's 48.8, 1:52.6, and 3:58.5.

How much could he realistically expect to drop his 400m PB in 6 months if he started training exclusively for that event?

Could he still run a half decent 800 after that switch?

If he compromised and incorporated more 400/800-style training, would there still be an improvement in the 400?

I have another question as well, regarding plyometrics:

It would seem that a very good and running-specific exercise to increase push-off power would be single-leg box-jumps. Has anyone tried this?

Intuitively, it seems like it would be great... but I would appreciate some feedback.

Thanks

PS Great thread!

I think single leg box jumps would be alright but I like reactive step ups better. You can even superset them with single leg squats.

left right repeat until fit wrote:

Take the case of a 20 year old male who started training at 17, has been training for the 800/1500 since then (with an emphasis on 1500-type training), and has current PB's 48.8, 1:52.6, and 3:58.5.

How much could he realistically expect to drop his 400m PB in 6 months if he started training exclusively for that event?

Could he still run a half decent 800 after that switch?

If he compromised and incorporated more 400/800-style training, would there still be an improvement in the 400?

I have another question as well, regarding plyometrics:

It would seem that a very good and running-specific exercise to increase push-off power would be single-leg box-jumps. Has anyone tried this?

Intuitively, it seems like it would be great... but I would appreciate some feedback.

Thanks

PS Great thread!

48 second quarter speed and a 3:58 1500m....Clear to me this athlete needs significant aerobic strength work. Great natural speed to work with, probably could drop 1 second on specific work over the course of one year, but more important would be to drop the 800m time to 4

1:48 and the 1500 to 3:45. This is a prime candidate to try the schedule suggested throughout this thread, where a mixture of plyos, hills, weights, etc replace yearlong speed work, and significant hard interval work over 800-1200 repeats as well a tempo runs to push down the lactate threshold will help carry the speed over lap 2. Speed base laid down inthe winter, and the short intense sharpening just before racing to get the enzymatic response.

I love to coach guys like this....as long as they are willing to buy into the program they can really become great....

OldSub4 wrote:

48 second quarter speed and a 3:58 1500m....Clear to me this athlete needs significant aerobic strength work. Great natural speed to work with, probably could drop 1 second on specific work over the course of one year, but more important would be to drop the 800m time to 4

1:48 and the 1500 to 3:45. This is a prime candidate to try the schedule suggested throughout this thread, where a mixture of plyos, hills, weights, etc replace yearlong speed work, and significant hard interval work over 800-1200 repeats as well a tempo runs to push down the lactate threshold will help carry the speed over lap 2. Speed base laid down inthe winter, and the short intense sharpening just before racing to get the enzymatic response.

I love to coach guys like this....as long as they are willing to buy into the program they can really become great....

Well I guess what's more important just depends on what you like better... in this case the 400 or the 800/1500.

But I guess you're saying that it would be more worthwhile, in terms of experiencing greater relative improvements, for someone like this to do more 800-specific stuff? Could/would the 400 still be improved at the same time?

left right repeat until fit wrote:

OldSub4 wrote:

I love to coach guys like this....as long as they are willing to buy into the program they can really become great....

Well I guess what's more important just depends on what you like better... in this case the 400 or the 800/1500.

But I guess you're saying that it would be more worthwhile, in terms of experiencing greater relative improvements, for someone like this to do more 800-specific stuff? Could/would the 400 still be improved at the same time?

my experience is that your 400m does keep improving if you are doing the 800/1500 work. If this runner were a fast twitch runner predominantly, it might be the case that he ran a 48.8 400m, but could only run a 4:45 mile. That runner might run 21.0-21.5 200m and you could make the case they should just train for the 400m and try to run around 46.5 ultimately.

If the runner lays out a 3:58 1500 after only 6 months of training...this tells me they are closer to 50/50 fast twitch/slow twitch with significant natural talent....and would end up improving most and be most competitive at 800-1500 over time. One marker that will confirm this is if his 400 time does keep dropping...it means his natural physical make-up is responding to the aerobic training. In that case regardless if i liked the 400m better than the 800m, i would council that athlete to concentrate on the 800/1500 to best realize his potential.

My personal opinion....

OldSub4 wrote:

If the runner lays out a 3:58 1500 after only 6 months of training...

You must have misread; the 3:58 came after 3 years of training... same with the two other times.

left right repeat until fit wrote:

OldSub4 wrote:

If the runner lays out a 3:58 1500 after only 6 months of training...

You must have misread; the 3:58 came after 3 years of training... same with the two other times.

if those times were run at age 17, the analysis would still hold. 3:58 says enough endurance to run the distance..

bump

OldSub4 wrote:

if those times were run at age 17, the analysis would still hold. 3:58 says enough endurance to run the distance..

Aye yai yai... more confusion!

I guess wasn't clear enough at the outset...

"a 20 year old male who started training at 17, has been training for the 800/1500 since then (with an emphasis on 1500-type training), and has current PB's 48.8, 1:52.6, and 3:58.5."

...so 3 years of middle-distance training, from ages 17 to 20, and current PB's of [listed above]... the 3:58 was 4 months ago, the 800 and 400 PB's were set about a 3 and 5 weeks before that, repsectively.

If it's useful to know (I imagine it is), at the age of 17, PB's after the first 6 months of training (starting from no running background, background in soccer and hockey) were: 55ish and 2:05 (no 1500).

This is an awesome thread. I'm focusing on the 1500 but this is still good stuff. If I save this in my favorites will I still be able to reference it?

So he dropped his 400m pr by 6 seconds, and his 800m time by 6 seconds per lap? Impressive.

left right repeat until fit wrote:

Aye yai yai... more confusion!

I guess wasn\'t clear enough at the outset...

\"a 20 year old male who started training at 17, has been training for the 800/1500 since then (with an emphasis on 1500-type training), and has current PB\'s 48.8, 1:52.6, and 3:58.5.\"

...so 3 years of middle-distance training, from ages 17 to 20, and current PB\'s of [listed above]... the 3:58 was 4 months ago, the 800 and 400 PB\'s were set about a 3 and 5 weeks before that, repsectively.

If it\'s useful to know (I imagine it is), at the age of 17, PB\'s after the first 6 months of training (starting from no running background, background in soccer and hockey) were: 55ish and 2:05 (no 1500).

Apologies...brain fart on my end.

The facts you state do change my guess a bit on what the athlete\'s best event would be. I guess I would have to defer to body shape. If the athlete weight in pounds is less than 108% of 2 times his height in inches, I would say he should stick with middle distance and try to just work more on his stamina to stretch out his natural speed. If the athlete is more muscle-prone and thick framed, the times you mentioned (48 and 3:58) actually are not too far off the range of some world class decathaletes, so mabye he should learn the jumps, throws, vault and hurdles instead! In all seriousness, if the athlete is built more like a sprinter I think he should try a season solely at 400m to see what happens...Dont know if this is helpful

old sub4, what sprint drills, plyometrics and strength training could you recommend for an 800m runner who is 17 years old? THanks

What's your opinion on this training program? Maybe some advices or adjustments on it?

This is my base period. In the sharpening period , on tuesday and thursday I do speed training and other longer sessions on the track.

Monday : 6-9 mile run (increases by 1 mile every 2 weeks),

running enerxices (jumps, but kicks, high knees,bounding)

Tuesday : Interval training (till 1 hour run) , strength training (2*10 lunges with 7-10 kg dumbells in each hand , and squat jumps 4*10 with 10-15 kg dumbells in each hand)

Wednesday : 6-9 mile run (increases by 1 mile every 2 weeks),some hurdles exercises and stretching routines

Thursday : Interval training (till 1 hour run)

Friday : hill training (short hills at max effort) 6-8 times*15 sec. Recovery : jogging back , that's about 40-50 sec.

Saturday: vacant

Sunday : long xc. Till 12 miles.

Questions:

1) I don't do any sprint drills (exept short hills) and i wonder, is that enough for an 800m ?

2)Should i consider doing strength training twice a week?

3) On friday should i do butkicks, some jumps,high knees on the hill? What other exercises could i do ?

Thank you