UPenn swimmer comes out as trans / switches to women's team after competing on men's team for 3 years and is dominating NCAA

RunRagged wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:

Come on, RR. These are people that are questioning the legitimacy of transgenderism. Questioning the effectiveness of testosterone suppression in negating the advantage in sports of having been male, isn't even remotely the same thing.

What's wrong with questioning the legitimacy of transgenderism?

A lot of people seem to think genderism is the mandatory state religion we all now must adhere to. But many like me disagree. I don't ascribe to the belief system of the Church of Genderology just like I don't buy the tenets of Shia or Sunni Islam, Roman Catholicism, Calvinism, Judaism, Shintoism, Mormonism, Hinduism or any other faith-based creed.

Why shouldn't people who are actually women get a say in what a woman is? Why do we have to do as we are told by all the sexist misogynistic men who now are claiming that they are women too - and all the rest of you guys who back them?

Transgenderism says that by lowering their testosterone a bit, taking some estrogen pills and declaring that they "identify as" women, males like Lia Thomas magically change sex and become women - and immediately or eventually lose all the physical characteristics that enable males to perform in sports better than females. It's all of a piece to me. And in my view, it's all bollocks.

You seem to believe that Thomas has undergone a sex change because you keep referring to Thomas as "having been male." Your only issue is that Thomas in your view has not gone far enough in the supposed sex change process to have lost enough of the sports advantage for it to be fair for Thomas to be competing against female athletes in women's sports at the present time. But you still buy the basic idea that Thomas has somehow changed sex and is now no longer male and eventually will be on the same plane physically as female athletes.

Also, on other posts you've said outright that fairness for females in sports doesn't matter to you.

I disagree with your views, as do many women - by which I mean biologically female people, the kind who conceived, gestated and gave birth to each and every human being ever to have lived in all of history. What is wrong with us questioning the male supremacist ideology of transgenderism?

Pray tell, how long do you think Thomas will have to be on testosterone suppression for Thomas to lose such "unladylike" and "unwomanly" physical characteristics as Thomas's testicles, penis, prostate, seminal vesicles, vas deferens, sperm count, Adam's apple, voice, hearing capacity, metabolism and all the bodily attributes that give Thomas such a huge leg up over females in sports? Such as Thomas's male height, male upper body strength, narrow male pelvis, longer and stronger male bones, male muscle mass and fibers, male tendons and ligaments, male sized and shaped hands and feet, male airway cells, and male lungs that are 10-12% larger and a male heart that is 25-38% larger and more powerful than would be found in a female of the same height, weight and age.

6,500 physical differences between human males and females have been documented - and more are being discovered all the time. These differences aren't magically whisked away when people make pronouncements that they've been born again as the opposite sex and they take drugs to alter their hormone profiles, and adopt different hairstyles and manner of dress.

During pregnancy, women - by which I mean the female kind - have natural testosterone levels that are much higher than we normally have. But pregnancy doesn't turn females into males or make us male-like. Lots of men go on meds to reduce their testosterone to zero for prostate cancer. They don't become women or woman-like in the process.

Transgenderism is based on faulty premises and a whole of load of sexist, misogynistic, male supremacist assumptions. Seems to me that questioning the legitimacy of transgenderism is what most rational, fair-minded people would do.

Women like me have been "gender nonconforming" our whole lives and we've always fought to create a better world where neither boys/men nor girls/women have to adhere to sexist stereotypes and rigid sex roles, and where gays, lesbians and bisexuals are just as free to love and live as heterosexuals are.

But at the same time, we've always fought for female humans - girls and women - to have equal human rights to male humans, and to create for females the specialist sports, spaces, provisions and services that we need to account for the fact that because we have human female anatomy and physiology we are very different to those with human male anatomy and physiology. Because of the enormous anatomical and physiological differences between human males and females, the female sex traditionally has been punched down on, sexually preyed upon and oppressed by the male sex - and so people like me have tried to come up with ways to make the playing field in sports and in life more fair.

Transgenderism undoes all the work that millions of women, and many men, have put in going back centuries to try to create more fairness between the sexes and to establish basic human rights for female people. So of course female people are going to question the legitimacy of transgenderism.

RunRagged wrote:

Tatar... wrote:

In a free society we have sex with whoever we want and pass on those we don't.

I didn't respond to this statement earlier because I found it really disturbing, abusive, rapey and pedophilic.

Your assertion that "in a free society we have sex with whoever we want and pass on those we don't" entirely ignores whether the persons "we want" have given consent to have sex with us. It also ignores whether the "whoever we want" are of the legal age to give consent to sex, have the mental capacity to consent to sex, are conscious enough to give consent when "we want" them, and are in a social, economic and physical position to be able to freely give or withhold consent to have sex.

You seem to think it's your right and the right of other males to have sex with whomever you want because all that matters is the "we want" part of the equation. Two-year-old children, passed-out drunk teens, people in comas or vegetative states, persons with severe developmental and physical disabilities, an elderly and frail person who can't fight back, someone with dementia or brain damage, people on their deathbeds, desperate people in disaster zones, prostituted and trafficked children and women - they're all fair game and there for the taking because in your view, "In a free society we have sex with whoever we want."

Your claim that "in a free society we have sex with whoever we want and pass on those we don't" is a statement that only could be made by someone who due to having "male privilege" and host of other sorts of advantages has never experienced sexual predation and abuse from others who are vastly bigger, stronger, faster and more powerful than you physically, mentally, politically, socially, economically, cognitively and chronologically.

Billions of people over the course of history have been sexually abused and exploited because of their economic, social, political and sex-based oppression, their underdog and lower caste status and their abject desperation. But to you, none of that matters because your definition of a "free society" is one in which males get to "have sex with whoever we want" and the "whoever we want" don't get a say.

RunRagged wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:

Come on, RR. These are people that are questioning the legitimacy of transgenderism. Questioning the effectiveness of testosterone suppression in negating the advantage in sports of having been male, isn't even remotely the same thing.

What's wrong with questioning the legitimacy of transgenderism?

A lot of people seem to think genderism is the mandatory state religion we all now must adhere to. But many like me disagree. I don't ascribe to the belief system of the Church of Genderology just like I don't buy the tenets of Shia or Sunni Islam, Roman Catholicism, Calvinism, Judaism, Shintoism, Mormonism, Hinduism or any other faith-based creed.

Why shouldn't people who are actually women get a say in what a woman is? Why do we have to do as we are told by all the sexist misogynistic men who now are claiming that they are women too - and all the rest of you guys who back them?

Transgenderism says that by lowering their testosterone a bit, taking some estrogen pills and declaring that they "identify as" women, males like Lia Thomas magically change sex and become women - and immediately or eventually lose all the physical characteristics that enable males to perform in sports better than females. It's all of a piece to me. And in my view, it's all bollocks.

You seem to believe that Thomas has undergone a sex change because you keep referring to Thomas as "having been male." Your only issue is that Thomas in your view has not gone far enough in the supposed sex change process to have lost enough of the sports advantage for it to be fair for Thomas to be competing against female athletes in women's sports at the present time. But you still buy the basic idea that Thomas has somehow changed sex and is now no longer male and eventually will be on the same plane physically as female athletes.

Also, on other posts you've said outright that fairness for females in sports doesn't matter to you.

I disagree with your views, as do many women - by which I mean biologically female people, the kind who conceived, gestated and gave birth to each and every human being ever to have lived in all of history. What is wrong with us questioning the male supremacist ideology of transgenderism?

Pray tell, how long do you think Thomas will have to be on testosterone suppression for Thomas to lose such "unladylike" and "unwomanly" physical characteristics as Thomas's testicles, penis, prostate, seminal vesicles, vas deferens, sperm count, Adam's apple, voice, hearing capacity, metabolism and all the bodily attributes that give Thomas such a huge leg up over females in sports? Such as Thomas's male height, male upper body strength, narrow male pelvis, longer and stronger male bones, male muscle mass and fibers, male tendons and ligaments, male sized and shaped hands and feet, male airway cells, and male lungs that are 10-12% larger and a male heart that is 25-38% larger and more powerful than would be found in a female of the same height, weight and age.

6,500 physical differences between human males and females have been documented - and more are being discovered all the time. These differences aren't magically whisked away when people make pronouncements that they've been born again as the opposite sex and they take drugs to alter their hormone profiles, and adopt different hairstyles and manner of dress.

During pregnancy, women - by which I mean the female kind - have natural testosterone levels that are much higher than we normally have. But pregnancy doesn't turn females into males or make us male-like. Lots of men go on meds to reduce their testosterone to zero for prostate cancer. They don't become women or woman-like in the process.

Transgenderism is based on faulty premises and a whole of load of sexist, misogynistic, male supremacist assumptions. Seems to me that questioning the legitimacy of transgenderism is what most rational, fair-minded people would do.

Women like me have been "gender nonconforming" our whole lives and we've always fought to create a better world where neither boys/men nor girls/women have to adhere to sexist stereotypes and rigid sex roles, and where gays, lesbians and bisexuals are just as free to love and live as heterosexuals are.

But at the same time, we've always fought for female humans - girls and women - to have equal human rights to male humans, and to create for females the specialist sports, spaces, provisions and services that we need to account for the fact that because we have human female anatomy and physiology we are very different to those with human male anatomy and physiology. Because of the enormous anatomical and physiological differences between human males and females, the female sex traditionally has been punched down on, sexually preyed upon and oppressed by the male sex - and so people like me have tried to come up with ways to make the playing field in sports and in life more fair.

Transgenderism undoes all the work that millions of women, and many men, have put in going back centuries to try to create more fairness between the sexes and to establish basic human rights for female people. So of course female people are going to question the legitimacy of transgenderism.

RunRagged wrote:

original liar soorer wrote:

Only someone in a state of false consciousness could interpret the original post in the way you have.

So female people who object to male supremacy and male sexual entitlement are "in a state of false consciousness"? Meaning per Marx and Engels we can't recognize reality and don't understand the true nature and source of our oppression under capitalism?

This is like U Penn recommending mental health services to the female athletes forced to compete with/against Lia Thomas, and made to undress and shower with Thomas, after they expressed their objections and were told to STFU.

I wonder: do you think I have "false consciousness" because I have a ditzy female brain full of pink fluff? Or because all us dumb brood mare women ever think about is makeup and prams?

Or perhaps you'd say I have "false consciousness" because my childbearing and "come hither" years are behind me and thus I no longer serve a purpose that you can see?

A friend of mine made this vid a while back that for some reason seems relevant.

https://youtu.be/QSKjyK74j1A

original liar soorer wrote:

RunRagged wrote:

So female people who object to male supremacy and male sexual entitlement are "in a state of false consciousness"? Meaning per Marx and Engels we can't recognize reality and don't understand the true nature and source of our oppression under capitalism?

This is like U Penn recommending mental health services to the female athletes forced to compete with/against Lia Thomas, and made to undress and shower with Thomas, after they expressed their objections and were told to STFU.

I wonder: do you think I have "false consciousness" because I have a ditzy female brain full of pink fluff? Or because all us dumb brood mare women ever think about is makeup and prams?

Or perhaps you'd say I have "false consciousness" because my childbearing and "come hither" years are behind me and thus I no longer serve a purpose that you can see?

A friend of mine made this vid a while back that for some reason seems relevant.

https://youtu.be/QSKjyK74j1A

I repeat you misread the original .

And you fail to grasp why I said “ false consciousness “.

What you say I do not deny but you are at the wrong race track.

RunRagged wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:

Come on, RR. These are people that are questioning the legitimacy of transgenderism. Questioning the effectiveness of testosterone suppression in negating the advantage in sports of having been male, isn't even remotely the same thing.

What's wrong with questioning the legitimacy of transgenderism?

A lot of people seem to think genderism is the mandatory state religion we all now must adhere to. But many like me disagree. I don't ascribe to the belief system of the Church of Genderology just like I don't buy the tenets of Shia or Sunni Islam, Roman Catholicism, Calvinism, Judaism, Shintoism, Mormonism, Hinduism or any other faith-based creed.

Why shouldn't people who are actually women get a say in what a woman is? Why do we have to do as we are told by all the sexist misogynistic men who now are claiming that they are women too - and all the rest of you guys who back them?

Transgenderism says that by lowering their testosterone a bit, taking some estrogen pills and declaring that they "identify as" women, males like Lia Thomas magically change sex and become women - and immediately or eventually lose all the physical characteristics that enable males to perform in sports better than females. It's all of a piece to me. And in my view, it's all bollocks.

You seem to believe that Thomas has undergone a sex change because you keep referring to Thomas as "having been male." Your only issue is that Thomas in your view has not gone far enough in the supposed sex change process to have lost enough of the sports advantage for it to be fair for Thomas to be competing against female athletes in women's sports at the present time. But you still buy the basic idea that Thomas has somehow changed sex and is now no longer male and eventually will be on the same plane physically as female athletes.

Also, on other posts you've said outright that fairness for females in sports doesn't matter to you.

I disagree with your views, as do many women - by which I mean biologically female people, the kind who conceived, gestated and gave birth to each and every human being ever to have lived in all of history. What is wrong with us questioning the male supremacist ideology of transgenderism?

Pray tell, how long do you think Thomas will have to be on testosterone suppression for Thomas to lose such "unladylike" and "unwomanly" physical characteristics as Thomas's testicles, penis, prostate, seminal vesicles, vas deferens, sperm count, Adam's apple, voice, hearing capacity, metabolism and all the bodily attributes that give Thomas such a huge leg up over females in sports? Such as Thomas's male height, male upper body strength, narrow male pelvis, longer and stronger male bones, male muscle mass and fibers, male tendons and ligaments, male sized and shaped hands and feet, male airway cells, and male lungs that are 10-12% larger and a male heart that is 25-38% larger and more powerful than would be found in a female of the same height, weight and age.

6,500 physical differences between human males and females have been documented - and more are being discovered all the time. These differences aren't magically whisked away when people make pronouncements that they've been born again as the opposite sex and they take drugs to alter their hormone profiles, and adopt different hairstyles and manner of dress.

During pregnancy, women - by which I mean the female kind - have natural testosterone levels that are much higher than we normally have. But pregnancy doesn't turn females into males or make us male-like. Lots of men go on meds to reduce their testosterone to zero for prostate cancer. They don't become women or woman-like in the process.

Transgenderism is based on faulty premises and a whole of load of sexist, misogynistic, male supremacist assumptions. Seems to me that questioning the legitimacy of transgenderism is what most rational, fair-minded people would do.

Women like me have been "gender nonconforming" our whole lives and we've always fought to create a better world where neither boys/men nor girls/women have to adhere to sexist stereotypes and rigid sex roles, and where gays, lesbians and bisexuals are just as free to love and live as heterosexuals are.

But at the same time, we've always fought for female humans - girls and women - to have equal human rights to male humans, and to create for females the specialist sports, spaces, provisions and services that we need to account for the fact that because we have human female anatomy and physiology we are very different to those with human male anatomy and physiology. Because of the enormous anatomical and physiological differences between human males and females, the female sex traditionally has been punched down on, sexually preyed upon and oppressed by the male sex - and so people like me have tried to come up with ways to make the playing field in sports and in life more fair.

Transgenderism undoes all the work that millions of women, and many men, have put in going back centuries to try to create more fairness between the sexes and to establish basic human rights for female people. So of course female people are going to question the legitimacy of transgenderism.

jamese1045@hotmail.com

wrote:

RunRagged wrote:

What's wrong with questioning the legitimacy of transgenderism?

A lot of people seem to think genderism is the mandatory state religion we all now must adhere to. But many like me disagree. I don't ascribe to the belief system of the Church of Genderology just like I don't buy the tenets of Shia or Sunni Islam, Roman Catholicism, Calvinism, Judaism, Shintoism, Mormonism, Hinduism or any other faith-based creed.

Why shouldn't people who are actually women get a say in what a woman is? Why do we have to do as we are told by all the sexist misogynistic men who now are claiming that they are women too - and all the rest of you guys who back them?

Transgenderism says that by lowering their testosterone a bit, taking some estrogen pills and declaring that they "identify as" women, males like Lia Thomas magically change sex and become women - and immediately or eventually lose all the physical characteristics that enable males to perform in sports better than females. It's all of a piece to me. And in my view, it's all bollocks.

You seem to believe that Thomas has undergone a sex change because you keep referring to Thomas as "having been male." Your only issue is that Thomas in your view has not gone far enough in the supposed sex change process to have lost enough of the sports advantage for it to be fair for Thomas to be competing against female athletes in women's sports at the present time. But you still buy the basic idea that Thomas has somehow changed sex and is now no longer male and eventually will be on the same plane physically as female athletes.

Also, on other posts you've said outright that fairness for females in sports doesn't matter to you.

I disagree with your views, as do many women - by which I mean biologically female people, the kind who conceived, gestated and gave birth to each and every human being ever to have lived in all of history. What is wrong with us questioning the male supremacist ideology of transgenderism?

Pray tell, how long do you think Thomas will have to be on testosterone suppression for Thomas to lose such "unladylike" and "unwomanly" physical characteristics as Thomas's testicles, penis, prostate, seminal vesicles, vas deferens, sperm count, Adam's apple, voice, hearing capacity, metabolism and all the bodily attributes that give Thomas such a huge leg up over females in sports? Such as Thomas's male height, male upper body strength, narrow male pelvis, longer and stronger male bones, male muscle mass and fibers, male tendons and ligaments, male sized and shaped hands and feet, male airway cells, and male lungs that are 10-12% larger and a male heart that is 25-38% larger and more powerful than would be found in a female of the same height, weight and age.

6,500 physical differences between human males and females have been documented - and more are being discovered all the time. These differences aren't magically whisked away when people make pronouncements that they've been born again as the opposite sex and they take drugs to alter their hormone profiles, and adopt different hairstyles and manner of dress.

During pregnancy, women - by which I mean the female kind - have natural testosterone levels that are much higher than we normally have. But pregnancy doesn't turn females into males or make us male-like. Lots of men go on meds to reduce their testosterone to zero for prostate cancer. They don't become women or woman-like in the process.

Transgenderism is based on faulty premises and a whole of load of sexist, misogynistic, male supremacist assumptions. Seems to me that questioning the legitimacy of transgenderism is what most rational, fair-minded people would do.

Women like me have been "gender nonconforming" our whole lives and we've always fought to create a better world where neither boys/men nor girls/women have to adhere to sexist stereotypes and rigid sex roles, and where gays, lesbians and bisexuals are just as free to love and live as heterosexuals are.

But at the same time, we've always fought for female humans - girls and women - to have equal human rights to male humans, and to create for females the specialist sports, spaces, provisions and services that we need to account for the fact that because we have human female anatomy and physiology we are very different to those with human male anatomy and physiology. Because of the enormous anatomical and physiological differences between human males and females, the female sex traditionally has been punched down on, sexually preyed upon and oppressed by the male sex - and so people like me have tried to come up with ways to make the playing field in sports and in life more fair.

Transgenderism undoes all the work that millions of women, and many men, have put in going back centuries to try to create more fairness between the sexes and to establish basic human rights for female people. So of course female people are going to question the legitimacy of transgenderism.

Excellent!

I think it's gonna take a lot more discussion and creative language-ing t o resolve this, but you have very well stated a case for regrouping, rethinking this issue before chiseling out and hard and fast rules right now.