Sub 1:50 800m Training

OS4,

As a senior in high school I ran 1:55 in the 800m under a coach who advocated a program very similar (nearly identical) to the one you have been talking about in this forum. Last year (first year of university)I had to adopt a new program/coach and was only able to run 1:57 as a result. The new coach was all about running us into the ground 3 times a week with intervals and then the rest of the days of the week were supposed to be recovery. Also, alot of the time our workouts were ran similar to races, where everyone would go balls out and try to drop eachother, rather than work together as a team and hit proper splits. Worse yet, coach would rarely give us any sense of direction on intervals so it was up to us to 'get a feel' for pacing the runs out. Today we did 5x1000 w/ 3:30 recovery. My times were, 2:56, 2:55, 2:55, 2:54, 2:52... 3:30 rest seems to be way too much, and as usual he didn't explain the reasoning behind the workout so I really had no idea what to do in it. I suppose what I'm trying to ask is, should I stick it out with this coach or change over to a proper program where I know exactly what to do every day and why I am doing it?

Oh, and we are currently switching over from XC to indoor track, which is our main season. Nationals are mid march.

Thanks in advance for any comments.

you'll never succeed if you don't believe in what you're doing..

Old Sub 4,

Sorry to burden you with yet another question on top of what the younger guys have already asked, but reply if/when you are able.....

The Tues 800/1000/1200m cutdown repeats: Do you classify them as LT repeats, or VO2max workout, or anything in particular, when you are the one performing them? It seems to me that since the paces are varied, and the intention is to run faster as you progress each repeat, its more a hybrid workout with the intention to teach a runner how to race?

Another one: The mile hard-3 miles at 6 min pace-mile hard workout, which you suggested as alternating with the aforementioned repeat sessions. Is this meant to stimulate similar effect as the repeats, or is it more a tempo type workout?

I don't mean to get into too much on specific definitions and all, but I just want an understanding of how the workout patterns are contributing to an 800m runner's development...

Old Sub 4,

Sorry to burden you with yet another question on top of what the younger guys have already asked, but reply if/when you are able.....

The Tues 800/1000/1200m cutdown repeats: Do you classify them as LT repeats, or VO2max workout, or anything in particular, when you are the one performing them? It seems to me that since the paces are varied, and the intention is to run faster as you progress each repeat, its more a hybrid workout with the intention to teach a runner how to race?

Another one: The mile hard-3 miles at 6 min pace-mile hard workout, which you suggested as alternating with the aforementioned repeat sessions. Is this meant to stimulate similar effect as the repeats, or is it more a tempo type workout?

I don't mean to get into too much on specific definitions and all, but I just want an understanding of how the workout patterns are contributing to an 800m runner's development...[/quote]

i would call it more of a general vo2 max workout, and a bit more away from the threshold vocab of just "learning how to deal with oxygen debt". We want to build up the lactic acid slowly, give some recovery, but each session to you are teaching the legs to:

1. Run the fastest of the day with the most fatigue

2. Get to a pace that is challenging and requires aerobic power

3. Do so without having the workout be too purely anaerobic so that you can recover in between intervals, in between workouts, and where you have a mistimed and unintentional enzyme peak.

--the main goal here is to teach the 800m man to hold form, running economy, and develope aerobic power so that they can maintain a fast pace, particularly in the second half of the race when you are decelerating and have nearly exhausted your anaerobic engine.

Sometimes we would run a hard 1200m before a tempo just to blow ourselves out and focus on recovering at a stiff pace--the thus the mile-3mile-mile workout. Teaching your body to remain fluid and relaxed while lactic acid is in your system callouses you over a 6 month period.

I know there is more science to this, but this is intuitive explanation....

Old Sub 4! i have an important question for you.

i'm a miler and training consists of in the base phase of the following:

two sessions: so 8x half mile with 150 sec recov

and something like 4x a mile or 2x 2mile with 3-5 min recov depends

other than that i do one LT rubn of 4 miles and one long run of 12 miles

the rest are runs of 8 miles!

i do strength exercises 6 days a week aswell.

Any guidance on how i could improve this base phase and progress it on for the next stage.

Would you recommend faster stuff and what

Cheers in advance!

*****************************************************8

I was just making the point that a 1500/5000m runner like me needs very different training to a pure 800 runner, but we still need to be able to run a fast 800.

I do my own training, and just ignore those who try to race me in sessions. I agree it's a big problem amongst runners to compete with each other in training, I think the reason why I am more sucessful than my team mates is because know the difference between training and racing.

Maybe we need a coach like yours who won't take no shit, but we do have a woman coach who seems to have got the message across to the younger runners, and they are winning lots of races in very fast times it's the older runners who are the worst offenders.

once again you're the man wellnow (sarcasm in case you missed it)

by the way who on earth actually trains with you and your random but enlightened training methods

tosser with the thickest skin known to man!!!!! why don't you go crawl back into your whole dickhead

suspicious, stop writing in this thread and try to get some help.

Santa Pause! wrote:

Old Sub 4! i have an important question for you.

i'm a miler and training consists of in the base phase of the following:

two sessions: so 8x half mile with 150 sec recov

and something like 4x a mile or 2x 2mile with 3-5 min recov depends

other than that i do one LT rubn of 4 miles and one long run of 12 miles

the rest are runs of 8 miles!

i do strength exercises 6 days a week aswell.

Any guidance on how i could improve this base phase and progress it on for the next stage.

Would you recommend faster stuff and what

Cheers in advance!

Your program sounds complete. I would add at least one day a week where you are doing something fast just to keep that system alive -- 6*200, 4*300....not fast or goal pace, but something that feels more like miling.

Other than that keep working the intensity as you go into January....Best of luck!

that´s enough wrote:

suspicious, stop writing in this thread and try to get some help.

I'm trying to get some help

What kind of 400m speed does a sub 1:50 half miler need? I'm not talking about running a 1:41 or anything, but more like 1:48 or 1:49?

I could run 50 low for 400 and run 1:49 as a half miler. Alot of the successful guys that I knew could go considerably faster though..Alot of guys running under 1:50 can dip beneath 50 with ease. It's an asset, but definitely not essential.

OS4,

I can't remember if you have previously stated your 400 time or not, but would you be able to contribute on this topic? Also, do you think an exceptional 800m time can be produced by someone having an average 400m time?

Johnny Nubbins!! wrote:

OS4,

I can't remember if you have previously stated your 400 time or not, but would you be able to contribute on this topic? Also, do you think an exceptional 800m time can be produced by someone having an average 400m time?

I ran 47.8 once on a mile relay leg. I knew someone who ran 49 high and broke 1:45 and someone who ran 47 who ran 1:43 low...

I never knew anyone who couldnt break 51 who could run under 150. I bet there are one or two of them, but my personal guess is that it is rare.

If you figure the optimal race is 53.9, 55.9 to run 1:49.8...then you have to be able to handle 53.9 from the gun. I am guessing that it means that you at least have to be able to break 52. Otherwise something is off..If you can only get under 52 and can run 1:49 you are probably strong as a mutha and should be a miler/3k guy...

Didn't Olympic Marathon Champion Sammy Wanjiru run 1.48 a few years ago?

What time would he have run for 400? Maybe 51/52

OldSub4 wrote:

I knew someone who ran 49 high and broke 1:45

wow,

400m pace=49high

800m pace=52.4

1500m pace=?

surely sub 57 seconds per 400m for 1500m pace right, or could he have gone much faster at 400m?

Some guys just don't accelerate that quick which throws off the usual equations. Look at Steve Cram- 1:42, 3:46 off of a 48.

I am guessing he was actually faster over 400m. I doubt most 800/1500m guys ever run a 400m when in great shape. Most of the time it is off a double, in a workout, or a relay. Of course even if this guy ran a 48 flat, that is pretty good endurance.I would definitely expect a killer 1500 but some people can have a great anaerobic bufering system and efficiency (to run fo 1:45 off the anaerobic energy) but not the power to run faster over 400m or the aerobic power to run a fast 1500m.

thats some good endurance wrote:

OldSub4 wrote:

I knew someone who ran 49 high and broke 1:45

wow,

400m pace=49high

800m pace=52.4

1500m pace=?

surely sub 57 seconds per 400m for 1500m pace right, or could he have gone much faster at 400m?

OR wrote:

I am guessing he was actually faster over 400m. I doubt most 800/1500m guys ever run a 400m when in great shape. Most of the time it is off a double, in a workout, or a relay. Of course even if this guy ran a 48 flat, that is pretty good endurance.

I would definitely expect a killer 1500 but some people can have a great anaerobic bufering system and efficiency (to run fo 1:45 off the anaerobic energy) but not the power to run faster over 400m or the aerobic power to run a fast 1500m.

thats some good endurance wrote:

wow,

400m pace=49high

800m pace=52.4

1500m pace=?

surely sub 57 seconds per 400m for 1500m pace right, or could he have gone much faster at 400m?

His 1500m pace was 56.4 per lap

Perhaps he could have run faster over 400m but so could have everyone...it is about what can you run a 400m when you are training for the 800 and 1500 since that is all the speed you will be equipped with.

His stride was so economical with great back-end mechanics, but he did not dig into his "sit" well and generate a great deal of power ever....thus the fantastic strength off of OK 400 speed.