"This was inevitable. No one in their universe could possibly express a nuanced or semi-defensible take on the Roches unless they are a Roche. That’s how these threads work:
Agree? You’re a “realist” and a “truth teller.”
Disagree, even slightly? You’re David. Or Megan. Or their close personal friend. Or their dog.
They’ll try to bait you into proving you’re not David, which is the funniest possible trap because there’s no way to do it that won’t sound even more like something David himself would say. You could post, 'I am not David Roche,' and someone will reply, 'This is exactly what David would say.'
At this point, you might as well lean in and start signing your posts: —Not David Roche™
Also, for the record, I am not currently writing this while wearing a headlamp and sprinting up a 15% grade while dictating into my phone, stopping only to yell 'Huzzah!' at passing cyclists. But I assume that won't convince anyone, either."
Repeatedly and wrongly trying to dismiss the entire thread as some sort of conspiracy theory led by basement dwellers isn't a 'nuanced' take. It's a lazy aspersion cast by someone who seemingly doesn't want to engage with the legitimate and numerous concerns shared by the Roche's previous paying customers that shines a very worrying light on the quality of their 'personal training' that seems to be anything but personal.
"This was inevitable. No one in their universe could possibly express a nuanced or semi-defensible take on the Roches unless they are a Roche.
Perhaps I'm a fool for engaging with a person pretending to be a chatbot, but I'll take this at face value. You posts so far have primarily: (a) defended Megan Roche's credentials and/or judgment; (b) defended David Roche's alleged communication practices with prospective clients & and (possibly performative) optimism; and (c) attacked the posters on this thead as a bunch of mouth-breathers engaged in a circlejerk of despair. Ok, so taking all that as a given... I guess... you haven't responded to the core arguments of this thread.
Do you have a "nuanced or semi-defensible take" regarding the main point that come up again and again here: David Roche makes money via coaching and Patreon subscriptions giving athletes training advice. Most of his takes are pretty standard (take rest days; focus on aerobic development; eat enough outside of training), some are novel (focus on developing vVo2max for ultras; importance of heat training during and after workouts), some are controversial (high-carb racing; use of bicarb, ketones and other marginal gains). This thread argues, again and again, that David Roche appears to exaggerate his performance abilities at easily testable milestones (i.e., can he run more than four laps on an all out 4 minute track TT) which in turns undermines his authority on controversial topics like 120+ g/hr carb intake.
Again, trying to take you at face value, do you have a "nuanced or semi-defensible take" on how to reconcile David Roche's repeated unsubstantiated performance claims as an athlete and his positioning himself as a expert given valuable coaching advice to others? Because to me, it appears he will exaggerate for attention, which in turn makes me question his advice on anything controversial or novel coaching topics.
David can be a trusted expert, or he can be a swaggering athlete/ influencer, but it is very hard to be both at the same time.
For how much you all obsess over the Roches, I think it’s funny that you think myself or the Chat GPT bot response are the Roches. Neither account is anywhere like the writing style of David or Megan, but I can see how that would be easy to miss when all you’re doing is looking for reasons to tear people down instead of reading the writing!
I welcome your thoughts as well on my immediate post above.
David can be a trusted expert, or he can be a swaggering athlete/ influencer, but it is very hard to be both at the same time.
You can be both if you gathered followers organically over time. Like Sage. He has twice as many IG followers, and though we clown Sage on here, he’s a normal dude.
Roche realized after Leadville that this is his time to cash in. He wasn’t a known quantity in any way before. Now he is, and he’ll be 40 in no time at all. So he has to go all in now and get as many followers and money as he can.
that’s hard to do organically so he’s doing what he can to juice up his numbers by claiming to do workouts he can’t do, by being theatrical in his videos, by lying
The previous course record holder at Leadville had a 2:19 marathon PB. Now the nutrition, cooling, the sport becoming more professional and shoes have changed ultras by a 180 degrees since Matt Carpenter ran his 15:42 Leadville time in 2005. To give you an idea of the state of ultras in 2005 vs now. Scott Jurek who won western states in 2005, would've been almost a hour behind the women's champion at western states in 2024. Now without David actually running a mile time trial, we'll never now how fast he can run a mile all out. Now if he should've said he believes you need to have the highest vo2 max on the start line in order to win western states instead of fastest 5k or mile. I believe that would be more accurate based on some studies looking at the best predictors of ultra performance. But saying a vo2 max number isn't the easiest thing for the average Joe to comprehend nor would it stir the pot as much(just look at this thread). How fast can he run a mile? I would guess he could go sub 4:20, maybe closer to 4:10 with shoe tech.
You can be both if you gathered followers organically over time. Like Sage. He has twice as many IG followers, and though we clown Sage on here, he’s a normal dude.
Roche realized after Leadville that this is his time to cash in. He wasn’t a known quantity in any way before. Now he is, and he’ll be 40 in no time at all. So he has to go all in now and get as many followers and money as he can.
that’s hard to do organically so he’s doing what he can to juice up his numbers by claiming to do workouts he can’t do, by being theatrical in his videos, by lying
Personally I have absolutely no problem with a man doing all the things you list here. Milk the influencer/podcast thing.. go for it! What I do have a problem with is runners spending a lot of money buying coaching advertised as "individual/personalized" when that's just not what it is. That is bending the truth if you wanna be nice.. but imo it is straight up FRAUD.
You can be both if you gathered followers organically over time. Like Sage. He has twice as many IG followers, and though we clown Sage on here, he’s a normal dude.
Roche realized after Leadville that this is his time to cash in. He wasn’t a known quantity in any way before. Now he is, and he’ll be 40 in no time at all. So he has to go all in now and get as many followers and money as he can.
that’s hard to do organically so he’s doing what he can to juice up his numbers by claiming to do workouts he can’t do, by being theatrical in his videos, by lying
Personally I have absolutely no problem with a man doing all the things you list here. Milk the influencer/podcast thing.. go for it! What I do have a problem with is runners spending a lot of money buying coaching advertised as "individual/personalized" when that's just not what it is. That is bending the truth if you wanna be nice.. but imo it is straight up FRAUD.
I agree. If you want to be an influencer and make money, great, do your thing. But if the way you're doing it is my lying, manipulation etc, then that's not cool at all
"This was inevitable. No one in their universe could possibly express a nuanced or semi-defensible take on the Roches unless they are a Roche.
Perhaps I'm a fool for engaging with a person pretending to be a chatbot, but I'll take this at face value. You posts so far have primarily: (a) defended Megan Roche's credentials and/or judgment; (b) defended David Roche's alleged communication practices with prospective clients & and (possibly performative) optimism; and (c) attacked the posters on this thead as a bunch of mouth-breathers engaged in a circlejerk of despair. Ok, so taking all that as a given... I guess... you haven't responded to the core arguments of this thread.
Do you have a "nuanced or semi-defensible take" regarding the main point that come up again and again here: David Roche makes money via coaching and Patreon subscriptions giving athletes training advice. Most of his takes are pretty standard (take rest days; focus on aerobic development; eat enough outside of training), some are novel (focus on developing vVo2max for ultras; importance of heat training during and after workouts), some are controversial (high-carb racing; use of bicarb, ketones and other marginal gains). This thread argues, again and again, that David Roche appears to exaggerate his performance abilities at easily testable milestones (i.e., can he run more than four laps on an all out 4 minute track TT) which in turns undermines his authority on controversial topics like 120+ g/hr carb intake.
Again, trying to take you at face value, do you have a "nuanced or semi-defensible take" on how to reconcile David Roche's repeated unsubstantiated performance claims as an athlete and his positioning himself as a expert given valuable coaching advice to others? Because to me, it appears he will exaggerate for attention, which in turn makes me question his advice on anything controversial or novel coaching topics.
David can be a trusted expert, or he can be a swaggering athlete/ influencer, but it is very hard to be both at the same time.
I'm not whoever you were responding to, but against my better judgment I'm going to weigh in as a semi-defense of the Roches. I haven't read the entire thread (32 pages!) but have read enough to get the gist. And as I posted yesterday, I think Roche is delusional if he thinks he's a sub-4 miler or 27:xx 10k guy. I haven't seen any evidence that he actually said either of those things, but if he did he is fooling himself. Even if he did, he doesn't have any high school or college track background, so maybe he is just being an idiot about it without knowing better. I do know that this isn't a big marketing thing -- that's Leadville and Javelina -- and his big point is that he says he wants to have the fastest 5k time on the starting line of WSER. He's definitely not "marketing" himself as a sub-4 or sub-28 guy.
As for background regarding the Roches, I listened to him on Rich Roll and thought some of his training theories were interesting and so have listened to some of their podcasts since then. I'm mostly interested in the stuff that he says has become common in professional cycling/triathlon, because I do think those sports are ahead of running in pushing the envelope, both legal and illegal, but obviously I'm interested in the legal. For example, I've seen enough other sources that make me think that heat training and use of bicarb for long-endurance events, etc are real things in those worlds and so are probably useful to runners.
With that said, I'm not really sure what the anti-Megan take is. She is an MD/PhD from Stanford, which is impressive no matter how you cut it (both the MD/PhD and, yes, that it's an elite institution), and that is plenty well-credentialed imo to read studies and give her takes on them. I do that and i have no scientific background. :) She seems to be more of a skeptic than David is about some of the science, especially as it relates to female athletes, and that seems sensible to me. She also seems super focused on REDS and, to the Roches' credit, it looks like they are really helping Allie Ostrander. People are freaking out on this thread about her return from giving birth, as if it's any of their business. I heard her say on a podcast that she is pushing the timetable in the way that she wouldn't recommend to others. Regardless, she gets to make her own calls on that and it's inane that she is being called out for it.
As for the coaching, there's stuff on Reddit about it too. I'd say it's the same as a lot of busy online coaches: some people saying it worked well, some people saying it worked well for a while then it dropped off, and some people saying there was no individual attention and it sucked. I worked with a prominent online coach -- Tom Schwartz (Tinman), both before and for a little while after he got really well known via Drew Hunter -- and I came to realize that there was a lot of cutting and pasting going on, if not entirely. I ended up deciding it was a waste of money. It is what it is, but it doesn't make Tinman or the Roches horrible people like this thread seems to make them out to be. Nor does it mean that they are bad coaches for any athlete. It means that they are overstretched and, yes, probably overselling how attentive they can be. That sucks when you're expecting more, but caveat emptor.
As for his performance abilities, like I said above I don't think there are "repeated unsubstantiated performance claims" other than the angry mob saying that there are. To be fair, I find them over-the-top about where David now ranks in the pantheon of ultrarunners, such as when Megan goes on and on about how David is now one of the best in the world and that his runs at Leadville and Javelina are historically great. I don't buy it, but we'll all find out at WSER. Maybe he proves us wrong. But, again, he is riding high -- and, yes, marketing himself -- off those performances and not any of this sub-4 stuff, which is a sideshow distraction created by this thread.
Also, for the record, I do find their "we love you all" stuff hard to stomach sometimes. :)
I'm not whoever you were responding to, but against my better judgment I'm going to weigh in as a semi-defense of the Roches. I haven't read the entire thread (32 pages!) but have read enough to get the gist. And as I posted yesterday, I think Roche is delusional if he thinks he's a sub-4 miler or 27:xx 10k guy. I haven't seen any evidence that he actually said either of those things, but if he did he is fooling himself. Even if he did, he doesn't have any high school or college track background, so maybe he is just being an idiot about it without knowing better. I do know that this isn't a big marketing thing -- that's Leadville and Javelina -- and his big point is that he says he wants to have the fastest 5k time on the starting line of WSER. He's definitely not "marketing" himself as a sub-4 or sub-28 guy.
I'm not exactly sure about the sub 4 thing. As far as the sub 28 thing, it's his actions that speak louder than his words. He has posted treadmill workouts on his Strava (measured and uploaded by his watch) that only a sub 28 10k runner could do, like 5-6 x mile starting at 4:36 and ending at 4:27. At altitude.
But, again, he is riding high -- and, yes, marketing himself -- off those performances and not any of this sub-4 stuff, which is a sideshow distraction created by this thread.
Twice you've claimed that the sub 4 mile claims are invented by this thread and not marketed by David himself. He went on a number of podcasts with this exact sub-4 claim as his 'secret sauce' and here he is saying it on his own Twitter account:
Back in January when Megan and I charted out the year, the dream of the Leadville 100 course record was overwhelming. But big dreams should be overwhelming. It was time to get to work.
But, again, he is riding high -- and, yes, marketing himself -- off those performances and not any of this sub-4 stuff, which is a sideshow distraction created by this thread.
Twice you've claimed that the sub 4 mile claims are invented by this thread and not marketed by David himself. He went on a number of podcasts with this exact sub-4 claim as his 'secret sauce' and here he is saying it on his own Twitter account:
Well, my "umm, no" handle is a perfect response to your "evidence." :)
In that tweet, he says "I need to be in capable of running a 13:xx 5k...or around sub-4 mile fitness...." He doesn't say he IS capable of either of those things. It's a distinction that matters, especially in the context of this thread.
And you seem to have missed where I keep saying that he is being delusional if he thinks he is actually capable of running sub-4. No way in hell is he ever going to be a sub-4 miler, and I agree with you on that.
Sure, "I need to be capable of running around sub-4" is not going to happen, but it's not like it's his "marketing thing. Sure, pick on him for saying he wants to win WSER -- I think he also said he is gunning for a course record -- but this sub-4 line of attack is stupid.
I'm not whoever you were responding to, but against my better judgment I'm going to weigh in as a semi-defense of the Roches. I haven't read the entire thread (32 pages!) but have read enough to get the gist. And as I posted yesterday, I think Roche is delusional if he thinks he's a sub-4 miler or 27:xx 10k guy. I haven't seen any evidence that he actually said either of those things, but if he did he is fooling himself. Even if he did, he doesn't have any high school or college track background, so maybe he is just being an idiot about it without knowing better. I do know that this isn't a big marketing thing -- that's Leadville and Javelina -- and his big point is that he says he wants to have the fastest 5k time on the starting line of WSER. He's definitely not "marketing" himself as a sub-4 or sub-28 guy.
I'm not exactly sure about the sub 4 thing. As far as the sub 28 thing, it's his actions that speak louder than his words. He has posted treadmill workouts on his Strava (measured and uploaded by his watch) that only a sub 28 10k runner could do, like 5-6 x mile starting at 4:36 and ending at 4:27. At altitude.
Agreed. No way is he running those times on a track in Boulder. But, without something more, I don't see this as some damning thing. People on here clearly have decided they don't like him for various reasons and are grasping at straws. He is racing enough so that people can and should just poke at him for that. For example, I don't see him winning WSER against some of the top guys who are planning to run, so people should feel free to mock him about that if they want. But pretty much everything on this thread is nitpicking at stupid stuff.
I'm not exactly sure about the sub 4 thing. As far as the sub 28 thing, it's his actions that speak louder than his words. He has posted treadmill workouts on his Strava (measured and uploaded by his watch) that only a sub 28 10k runner could do, like 5-6 x mile starting at 4:36 and ending at 4:27. At altitude.
Agreed. No way is he running those times on a track in Boulder. But, without something more, I don't see this as some damning thing. People on here clearly have decided they don't like him for various reasons and are grasping at straws. He is racing enough so that people can and should just poke at him for that. For example, I don't see him winning WSER against some of the top guys who are planning to run, so people should feel free to mock him about that if they want. But pretty much everything on this thread is nitpicking at stupid stuff.
it's not at all. It's simply pointing out how he lies time and time again for no reason other than doing so gives him attention (and possibly money)
Agreed. No way is he running those times on a track in Boulder. But, without something more, I don't see this as some damning thing. People on here clearly have decided they don't like him for various reasons and are grasping at straws. He is racing enough so that people can and should just poke at him for that. For example, I don't see him winning WSER against some of the top guys who are planning to run, so people should feel free to mock him about that if they want. But pretty much everything on this thread is nitpicking at stupid stuff.
it's not at all. It's simply pointing out how he lies time and time again for no reason other than doing so gives him attention (and possibly money)
Dude, I hate to break it to you, but it isn't a "lie" to post a treadmill workout on Strava. Even if it's off his watch. You guys are making way too much out of basically nothing, as I keep saying. I did start watching his "road to western states" (whatever it's called) videos and he said that the treadmill might not be accurate.
Note to David: your treadmill is definitely not accurate!
As I keep saying, I agree with all of you that he isn't sub-4 and he isn't sub-28 (though, again, I don't think he actually said he is other than aspirationally).
His comment did suggest/confirm that he reads the stuff written about him. Not a huge surprise since he is a social media junkie. Maybe that makes you dislike him and root against him (well, clearly it does), but I'll stand by that nothing discussed on this thread has warranted "liar" or "fraud" etc.
it's not at all. It's simply pointing out how he lies time and time again for no reason other than doing so gives him attention (and possibly money)
Dude, I hate to break it to you, but it isn't a "lie" to post a treadmill workout on Strava. Even if it's off his watch. You guys are making way too much out of basically nothing, as I keep saying. I did start watching his "road to western states" (whatever it's called) videos and he said that the treadmill might not be accurate.
Note to David: your treadmill is definitely not accurate!
As I keep saying, I agree with all of you that he isn't sub-4 and he isn't sub-28 (though, again, I don't think he actually said he is other than aspirationally).
His comment did suggest/confirm that he reads the stuff written about him. Not a huge surprise since he is a social media junkie. Maybe that makes you dislike him and root against him (well, clearly it does), but I'll stand by that nothing discussed on this thread has warranted "liar" or "fraud" etc.
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