What irritates me almost more than the ruling itself is that the recently confirmed justices literally said it was precedent. They straight up lied through their teeth, and bobblehead Susan Collins said she believed them, as well as Lisa M.
They didn’t lie. They were impressively conscientious about not saying anything that would turn out to be a lie. Go listen to the videos or actually read the transcript. SC justices are incredibly articulate and smart people with an intellectual conscience. Their conscience may not agree with yours, but they are way way more conscientious — like academics and scientists — than politicians.
Agree Collins was a dumbo for not recognizing standard issue scotus nominee lingo.
Fine, all you have to do is replace “Lie” with “misled” and the same point is made. Just like when Trump said “ I never called Mike Pence a wimp, I just said he didn’t have the courage to do the right thing!”
You're such a try-hard. You think random articles like that can match your centuries of slavery, Jim Crow, lynchings and the rest - Derek Chauvin and so on. At least it establishes your opinions on anything else are as myopic and ignorant.
"More than 150 years after the 13th Amendment abolished slavery in the United States, most U.S. adults say the legacy of slavery continues to have an impact on the position of black people in American society today. More than four-in-ten say the country hasn’t made enough progress toward racial equality, and there is some skepticism, particularly among blacks, that black people will ever have equal rights with whites, according to a new Pew Research Center survey."
I wouldn't be surprised if Texas still tries to prosecute you for an abortion out of state. That's the way the laws in these places are already heading. You don't seem to think a woman should have the right to choose in most cases, so you wouldn't understand how bad I feel for the women whose lives will be negatively effected by this outcome. You seem to care more about how it looks from a man's viewpoint, which to me is kinda like complaining about your broken arm when you have a friend dying of cancer.
These virtue signaling bloviations are vacuous. Most people agree most good things are good are good and bad things bad. It’s a question of ordering principles by priority and at which principle the buck stops, ie there is no other ulterior justification of it rather than a belief in the self evident truth of that principle itself.
For me that principle is democracy which comes way higher than most anything else in politics. So whatever *is* is almost always good because we got here democratically. The scotus ruling turning abortion to the states is just democracy working as expected.
Abortions are much brouhaha over something that is or should be rare anyway. If the people as a majority don’t want it, I don’t see why it should be legal. I indeed don’t feel as bad for the very small number of negatively affected women as you do. Just like I don’t feel as bad for the men and other groups who have it worse on some dimensions. They are just collateral damage.
You might not understand how others feel at all from the looks of it. Democracy is great and all but I can't just use the idea of democracy to distance myself from the outcomes in politics. I think we'll have something legislated at the federal level in the next 20-30 years. There's already a majority of people who want it. The fact that there's a pill now could help get it through. I'm not concerned about the long term for abortion. Just sad about right now. I think our democracy is going to fail us more in other ways like being slow to react to climate change.
The Supreme Court said that government has the right to make that decision for you. You have NO right to make that personal decision for yourself.
So you are the furthest thing from free on this subject.
It’s not a personal decision. There are at least three persons involved in the decision, or at least two of you insist on not considering a non-yet-breathing person as a person.
The government also has a right to make a decision that you are not allowed to kill yourself. Or enslave yourself via contract. You don’t have the bodily autonomy to make some types of decisions about your body because they have ramifications outside of your body.
There aren't 3 people who are involved in the question unless you are an anti-abortion advocate and reject the woman's right to choose what she does with her own body.
To liken abortion to either suicide or enslavement is false. Roe v Wade would not have stood for 50 years if they were in any way equivalent and the SCOTUS did not depend on such arguments to overturn it. The issue is not whether others are affected by the woman's decision but simply the status accorded to the foetus. That is a question that is decided by the values a person holds.
Absolutely they lied. They clearly mislead so they would get appointed. "I can't comment on how I would rule, but roe versus wade is established precedent and I am a strong believer is respecting precedent" (words to that effect)
The highest court in the land has liars.
Why is that a lie? They respected precedent and respectfully overturned it with a long explanation of why it wrong in the first place. Segregation was similarly respectfully overturned with Brown.
Overturning precedent itself has plenty of precedent, which also the justices respected.
They so respected Roe v Wade they threw it out the first opportunity they had.
Segregation was not respected; it was seen as it was, a denial of fundamental rights, and so Brown was rejected. But this SCOTUS is happy to take away established rights. That is a politicised Court.
I wouldn't be surprised if Texas still tries to prosecute you for an abortion out of state. That's the way the laws in these places are already heading. You don't seem to think a woman should have the right to choose in most cases, so you wouldn't understand how bad I feel for the women whose lives will be negatively effected by this outcome. You seem to care more about how it looks from a man's viewpoint, which to me is kinda like complaining about your broken arm when you have a friend dying of cancer.
These virtue signaling bloviations are vacuous. Most people agree most good things are good are good and bad things bad. It’s a question of ordering principles by priority and at which principle the buck stops, ie there is no other ulterior justification of it rather than a belief in the self evident truth of that principle itself.
For me that principle is democracy which comes way higher than most anything else in politics. So whatever *is* is almost always good because we got here democratically. The scotus ruling turning abortion to the states is just democracy working as expected.
Abortions are much brouhaha over something that is or should be rare anyway. If the people as a majority don’t want it, I don’t see why it should be legal. I indeed don’t feel as bad for the very small number of negatively affected women as you do. Just like I don’t feel as bad for the men and other groups who have it worse on some dimensions. They are just collateral damage.
Where is the democracy when 6 unelected people take away the rights of millions of people - all women - against the wishes of the majority of Americans? Giving it back to the states is reducing it to regional issue and not recognizing it as a fundamental human right. There isn't a democracy in the world that applauds the decision. The US has simply gone back into the distant past.
Yeah who cares about the women, right? Not like we actually talk to them, let alone anything else. What really matters is rules of the court!
SCOTUS is concerned about the constitution. They stated that the court, and the constitution, are neutral regarding abortion; therefore, it’s sent back to the states. Stop trying to make a constitutional law decision into something emotional. You and I can care about women while simultaneously caring that SCOTUS makes constitutionally grounded decisions.
So a woman's right to choose what she does with her own body isn't a fundamental right, it depends on where she lives in the US and the whims of a State legislature? Women's rights are a regional issue. I guess that's consistent with the view taken at one point over slavery. States rights trump human rights. This is a Court determined to go back to into the country's past.
Your very first sentence is distorting what I said and building an edifice on top of that false foundation, so I’ll repeat, “Maternity mortality rates are very low in the US”. In the present tense. It’s not an important enough rate for me to worry about. I don’t care about the part because I live in the present.
Your gratuitously talking about me as opposed to the arguments on the table would be like me saying I’ll chalk it up to your idiocy and lack of good parenting. Or something random like that.
”We” never established sanctity of life pertains only to a small fraction of the base. You did. I just said that argument is not personally important to me. I respect those who say it is for them and blindly choose to take them at their word. In the name of democracy. If you don’t think they have free will and have been hoodwinked, go and educate them. You will probably fail with your tone and they will have their way like they did on this one.
You are dismissing the obvious burdens that pregnancy places on women. Modern medicine has brought maternal mortality way down -- a massive achievement -- but that doesn't mean that pregnancy is easy, extremely disruptive to modern careers/lifestyles/etc, painless. And just because women aren't dying doesn't mean many aren't hospitalized for weeks around birth. That's not fun!
It's clear that you're just going to repeatedly discount the cost of pregnancy to women. I can't convince you to be more empathetic but if you every have loved one go through pregnancy, god forbid a difficult one, I am confident you'll look back on your positions now with embarrassment.
There's plenty of evidence that 'sanctity of life' is not an actually important argument. Neither of us think it's important. Religiousness is at an all time low, let alone the kind of church-three-times-a-week that gives on the pious cred to take such a position.
I'm not saying these hoodwinkees don't have free will! They chose to be pawns in the conservative political apparatus. That's a choice we all must live with, but these people didn't win. When you choose to be a pawn you don't win or lose. Gotta at least be a minor piece.
The US has a maternal mortality rate ~ 10X higher than the lowest countries. There are lots of gain to made still.
I would like to know how high that rate would have to claim before the faux-sanctity folks would reconsider their absolute stance against abortion.
Yes. A zygote is a human. Just because a person looks different at their zygote stage of development than other developmental stages doesn't make them any less human.
So those thousands of frozen zygotes are all people with the same rights as people. So in your eyes, if someone takes them out of the freezer they are murderers and should be arrested??
Really, that's what you think?? I want to see you actually state your agreement with that (exactly as I said) in a post.
I am betting my reputation that you cannot state that. Should those frozen zygotes be counted in the census and assigned guardians??
No answer from anyone on that basic question. Is a frozen zygote a person and should taking it out of the freezer be a crime?
You can't answer this because you don't know when a cluster of cells becomes a person. But on some level you know a frozen zygote a is NOT a person. An unfrozen zygote is not a person either.
The Supreme Court said that government has the right to make that decision for you. You have NO right to make that personal decision for yourself.
So you are the furthest thing from free on this subject.
It’s not a personal decision. There are at least three persons involved in the decision, or at least two of you insist on not considering a non-yet-breathing person as a person.
The government also has a right to make a decision that you are not allowed to kill yourself. Or enslave yourself via contract. You don’t have the bodily autonomy to make some types of decisions about your body because they have ramifications outside of your body.
If you are of sound mind, the government is starting to realize it has no right to interfere with the decision to end your own life. There are many situations (terminal illnesses) where it is and should be allowed. If you are not of sound mind such as being depressed or severely distraught government has a right to step in but only in those circumstances.
If your choose to act like a slave for someone, the government has no say in that. The government can control legal documents such as contracts.
The government has no right to tell a woman what she has to do with her clump of cells that are part of her body.
SCOTUS is concerned about the constitution. They stated that the court, and the constitution, are neutral regarding abortion; therefore, it’s sent back to the states. Stop trying to make a constitutional law decision into something emotional. You and I can care about women while simultaneously caring that SCOTUS makes constitutionally grounded decisions.
So a woman's right to choose what she does with her own body isn't a fundamental right, it depends on where she lives in the US and the whims of a State legislature? Women's rights are a regional issue. I guess that's consistent with the view taken at one point over slavery. States rights trump human rights. This is a Court determined to go back to into the country's past.
I love abortions as much as the next guy, buts it's a weird take that you don't think rights are a regional issue... There is no such thing as human rights. Stop drinking the kool-aid. Rights are always governed by whatever region that human chooses to live their life.
Very telling that the idea of killing babies being wrong is thought of as a strictly Christian idea. I'm not Christian, but I thought that being against murdering infants would be an almost-universal attitude.
100% of people think murdering infants is wrong but only 30% of women of child-bearing age think abortion is wrong and should be illegal in most circumstances.
If you are correct about "abortion = murder" then why do SO MANY people disagree and can see a difference between these things? If it were as simple and obvious as you think, we'd all agree, but we don't because it isn't.
The US has a maternal mortality rate ~ 10X higher than the lowest countries. There are lots of gain to made still.
I would like to know how high that rate would have to claim before the faux-sanctity folks would reconsider their absolute stance against abortion.
That’s a silly question because it’s asking how high the maternal mortality rate would have to be to make it worthwhile to ensure certain death for the unborn child. You just don’t care at all about sanctity of life is all. Many people feel differently.
Now you add in so many progressives pushing for late term abortion on demand and it has ultimately came back to bite them in the uterus. You don't have to be a religious zealot to understand that late term abortion is abhorrent unless there are very extenuating circumstances. You keep trying to cast this off as some dumb country hicks getting mad about people killing a clump of cells, when in reality we are talking about people getting abortions for convenience way after the stage of viability.
They pushed the pendulum too far and now it is swinging back. Yet, despite all the drama, abortion isn't going anywhere except to the states as it should.
Nobody was pushing for changes to abortion regulations apart from the Christian Right. There is no pendulum.
The term "late-term abortion" is an oxymoron anyway because it's effectively an induced birth. There is nothing that will end a pregnancy in the third trimester that will not result in a delivery.
You're worried about something happening that doctors can't and don't do.
Maternity mortality rates are very low in the US, and in case, the number doesn’t matter because maternity is part of normal female life.
Well I found my answer. "The number of women dying in childbirth doesn't matter because it is a normal part of female life"
So I guess the answer to my previous post is: there is no mortality rate that would justify abortion...
Absolute sociopathy. I cannot believe you have ever had a real relationship with an adult woman platonic or romantic.
It’s the province of folks too unintelligent to respond to the argument to resort to personally attacking the maker of the argument. No wonder you don’t get your way in politics.
It’s not a personal decision. There are at least three persons involved in the decision, or at least two of you insist on not considering a non-yet-breathing person as a person.
The government also has a right to make a decision that you are not allowed to kill yourself. Or enslave yourself via contract. You don’t have the bodily autonomy to make some types of decisions about your body because they have ramifications outside of your body.
If you are of sound mind, the government is starting to realize it has no right to interfere with the decision to end your own life. There are many situations (terminal illnesses) where it is and should be allowed. If you are not of sound mind such as being depressed or severely distraught government has a right to step in but only in those circumstances.
If your choose to act like a slave for someone, the government has no say in that. The government can control legal documents such as contracts.
The government has no right to tell a woman what she has to do with her clump of cells that are part of her body.
Your last sentence is pretty silly because it completely ignored the principle your previous two paras accepted.
You presumably also think a surrogate mother has absolute rights over the clump of cels that are part of her body. Guess what, they are not. So go jump off a bridge now.
You are dismissing the obvious burdens that pregnancy places on women. Modern medicine has brought maternal mortality way down -- a massive achievement -- but that doesn't mean that pregnancy is easy, extremely disruptive to modern careers/lifestyles/etc, painless. And just because women aren't dying doesn't mean many aren't hospitalized for weeks around birth. That's not fun!
It's clear that you're just going to repeatedly discount the cost of pregnancy to women. I can't convince you to be more empathetic but if you every have loved one go through pregnancy, god forbid a difficult one, I am confident you'll look back on your positions now with embarrassment.
There's plenty of evidence that 'sanctity of life' is not an actually important argument. Neither of us think it's important. Religiousness is at an all time low, let alone the kind of church-three-times-a-week that gives on the pious cred to take such a position.
I'm not saying these hoodwinkees don't have free will! They chose to be pawns in the conservative political apparatus. That's a choice we all must live with, but these people didn't win. When you choose to be a pawn you don't win or lose. Gotta at least be a minor piece.
The US has a maternal mortality rate ~ 10X higher than the lowest countries. There are lots of gain to made still.
I would like to know how high that rate would have to claim before the faux-sanctity folks would reconsider their absolute stance against abortion.
In the US, 24 women per 100,000 die during or immediately after childbirth