Yes the school had a deal that was clearly spelled out in the terms of the scholarship, and no where in the terms of that agreement (that those girls signed) was there a deal where they would not be cut. The agreed to deal was honored. The girls got to keep the money.
pop_pop! wrote:
Dial it up wrote:This is as dead on as it gets. Most of the crap on here are people like "link" who think it's morally wrong to cut someone who you don't feel is good enough to be on your team. It's actually just high level athletics and it's likely you just haven't had any exposure. NOT A SINGLE RULE WAS BROKEN. The chicks actually got a year of free
School for nothing and they still have 4 years of eligibility elsewhere, if they are half as good as their parents think they are then they should be able to find a team easily.
#1: You are revising the facts to fit your opinion.
It wasn't a performance cut. The school made a deal. The school reneged on the deal in the worst possible way.
#2 Yeah, good job. No rules broken. Yet, the impact the story has had in the running community tells you it's not about "rules."
Actually no the school did not reneg on the deal. Scholarships are for 1 year. The girls received 1 year of scholarship. The impact this has had has done nothing but reinforce to me why some people are highly successful and others only achieve average results.
Dial it up wrote:
pop_pop! wrote:#1: You are revising the facts to fit your opinion.
It wasn't a performance cut. The school made a deal. The school reneged on the deal in the worst possible way.
#2 Yeah, good job. No rules broken. Yet, the impact the story has had in the running community tells you it's not about "rules."
Actually no the school did not reneg on the deal. Scholarships are for 1 year. The girls received 1 year of scholarship. The impact this has had has done nothing but reinforce to me why some people are highly successful and others only achieve average results.
Beth, you are a psycho. Stop it. Everyone can see exactly what you are about. You are reprehensible.
pop_pop! wrote:
Seems Legit wrote:I have a very hard time believing this was written by a kid headed to Brown...
smells like a troll to me.
My personal experience with my own kid and her high-performance peers is the post is the reasonable facsimile of a well-grounded young adult.
I could be wrong. Totally wrong. But, the kids I know would do something like what was posted.
That is not high-performance behavior and even more so not high-performance writing - base on all of her posts not just this one. I've spent the last 20 years mentoring Ivy/NESCAC/UAA/MIT/Cal Tech type student-athletes and this does not at all resemble their behavior and certainly not their writing. I have seen enough college app essays, assignments, and imformal emails & texts from them to think this is a Brown signee.
I too could be wrong - but based on a very large sampling (hundreds of kids) I lean toward this being a typical Let's Run troll.
Dial it up wrote:
Actually no the school did not reneg on the deal. Scholarships are for 1 year. The girls received 1 year of scholarship. The impact this has had has done nothing but reinforce to me why some people are highly successful and others only achieve average results.
Yes technically they honored the deal. But you don't bring in kids for 3 weeks with the expectation that they'll have the opportunity to participate with the team and compete for them in the winter/spring. Add to that, then block them from competing from another school in the conference for a year. That's just a wrong way to treat people.
If you are in any way associated with the University of Tennessee, here's to hoping that karma bites your ass and your program is going down.
Keep this thread popping up every 2 months so potential recruits see what UT is about.
The very positive aspect of d'bag parents having this thread pop up every 2 months or so for potential recruits to see is important - 1) it keeps away people that search for information on letsrun where only one side is told by disgruntled, underachieving folks instead of investigating facts 2) if I were BAS then I would love this weeding out process before you waste time on coddled little children.
I will bet a mortgage payment that the people that continue to whine on this thread have not raised children that will have any chance of being successful in the SEC or on the national level. In other words, BAS got rid of the right people (and more importantly their parents).
So let the party begin and lets keep bringing this thread up so we can save the Tennessee staff some time!
OK. Here you go, a little parable (just to keep it at the top...)
One morning, vigorous young go-getter BAS, having selpt a little too deeply well dreaming of her John Gault - like inevitable success, wakes suddenly realizing she's overslept her alarm.
She still has time to make it to work, luckily, but only if she hurries. This is good since today is an important day. Today, she'll be kicking all of her scholarship athletes off her team - effective immediately. She needs to do this to help them understand that the world is a cruel unfeeling place. She knows that they won't care - their parents raised them right, afterall.
She flies to her car, opens the garage door and zooms out of the driveway. Turning on two squeeling wheels, she roars down her street, almost, but not quite unaware of her neighbor's dog, which has chased a squirrel into the street. Thinking quickly, she remembers that running over family pets is no crime (in Tennessee.... ) and with a quick bump and squeel, hits poor Rex on her way - 80 mph down the street (Thank goodness, no cops - ahhh rules and morality are for other people...). Although she's in a hurry, she takes just a second to roll down her window and laugh, freely, like the wind passing through her glorious blonde tresses.
Later, after kicking every runner off her team - they weren't SEC material anyway (probably...), she returns home to find her neighbors and their children waiting for her. The neighbors have a particularly pitiful little urchin - what was her name??? - Anne? (who cares/?) - who is crying - something about a dog. Oh yes! The character building favor she did the family earlier when she ran over their dog! Why,,, why aren't they thanking BAS?!? BAS is genuinely mystified. Then, then it occurs to her! She begins to speak. You parents have really failed your children that they would care about their puppy. It is your job - she wags her finger at the parents - to remind them daily that having a dog means that they have taken the risk that the higher evolved will some day need to kill that dog to reach their higher goals, goals that children who cry over dead dogs will never ever achieve. Like kicking everyone off their team. BAS smiles inwardly. She thinks. I wonder how long before the parents, realizing their terrible errors will buy me presents in gratitude for pointing them out.
The moral of my little story? Ah... heck, forget it. Morals aren't for you, defenders of BAS.
Just to keep this at the top so your children will see what a clown you are once they realize the world isn't out to get them.
I am sorry that you still can't get it. You are missing by a long shot but it has been thoughtfully explained several times. I am no longer going to assume that you can figure relatively simple things out. The very simple fact that your child got to keep her scholarship for a year despite not being SEC/high level NCAA material and you are whining says it all. The very simple fact that you are a helicopter parent trying to solve every problem for your child says it all. Nearly ANY person in college would love the free year that did not use up their eligibility. FREE college! How horrible! Oh, I am sorry that they could not use the facilities until the real athletes left. That is horrible too. I am sorry that the mean woman BAS followed the contract fully and somehow you cant figure it out. I am also sorry for you that the former staff overpaid for athletes on purpose to put the new staff in a bind. Why doesn't she transfer to UCONN? Is she too good for UCONN? Or is JJ no longer that interested in her because now it is scholarship money at a school he knows he will be at? Have you ever thought that may be the case? BAS did not cut your daughters scholarship. She did not renew for next year and obviously felt that she was not someone she wanted on the team.
I was a college athlete and I know for sure that I would hate for my parent to be posting this BS that you post trying to protect me. I am also a parent and I want to my children to learn how to take care of themselves so they have skills for life. They are younger than your daughter but I still would not be pulling this crap. They will be independent, strong people. I will be there for them in case it is something really bad - not getting cut from the team. You probably call up their boyfriends when they get dumped too!
Morals?! You know nothing of morals, ethics or raising a child and that is obvious. Parents like you are a huge reason that there are frivolous lawsuits and our country is so f'd up. It is always someone else's fault. Good luck to your kids! College athletics is not just about participation. The SEC conference is brutal. And to whomever said winning isn't important at Tennessee then you are absolutely clueless. Why the heck is JJ no longer there? Please tell me that one. The guy won numerous NCAA titles but was in steep decline over the last few years. You tell JJ that he wasn't fired for performance and there is no pressure to win you freakin idiot. JJ is a very good man but wasn't winning. That is the real life that you may want to teach your children about before it smacks them in the face. I feel so sorry for those kids that they did not have a leader for a parent.
Hahahaha yourself!
You should check out my past posts here. I am not one of the aggrieved parents. I do have children. My oldest child will be attending a top 30 school with the assistance of academic scholarships this coming fall. He is a good runner, not great, but good. He did his best in athletics,given that he saw it as only one part of his development. He kept things in proper perspective. He knew what was important. Do you?
Do not be fooled there are more things happening at UT more athlete contact not being renewed do to BAS direction. Well 2015 for her was a fail maybe 2016 will be better or maybe she will sink her self.
From UT's Athletic Website.
Our Mission
To inspire and support our student-athletes in the pursuit of comprehensive excellence.
Our Vision
To represent the University of Tennessee among the nation's premier athletics programs by developing student-athletes who graduate, compete for championships and conduct themselves in a first-class manner, honoring and fulfilling the Volunteer spirit.
Core Values
Integrity without compromise
National leadership
Service to our students, fans, and community
Personal accountability
Inclusion and respect for the individual
Relentless competitiveness
Excellence in education
Maybe it's just me, but it doesn't seem that the Beth Sullivan is living up to the Mission, Vision, or Core values set out by UT's athletic department.
See their 2015 performance list. No points at all in 400 IM, and Harvey's 100 M hurdles so far this year (a disrupted one at that) would put her 2nd on the team. Distance scores are weak for a DI.
What they could have done is brought these kids in at the beginning of the year, said we are heading in a different direction so you'll have to prove yourself this year to retain your scholarship: run Y times and score X points at conference/regionals.
By kicking them off the team short term they threw away 2015 points and long term (for a year or two at least) they have damaged the reputation of the program.
check another wrote:
See their 2015 performance list. No points at all in 400 IM, and Harvey's 100 M hurdles so far this year (a disrupted one at that) would put her 2nd on the team. Distance scores are weak for a DI.
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/tenn/sports/c-xctrack/auto_pdf/2014-15/misc_non_event/2015WomensOutdoorTopTimes.pdfWhat they could have done is brought these kids in at the beginning of the year, said we are heading in a different direction so you'll have to prove yourself this year to retain your scholarship: run Y times and score X points at conference/regionals.
By kicking them off the team short term they threw away 2015 points and long term (for a year or two at least) they have damaged the reputation of the program.
This. I'm trying to make sense of this. Did she give those scholarships to someone else this year? Do they carry over to next year? If not, this was a capricious and cruel move, not to mention stupid from a competitive point of view. If so, then her genius tactical move sure didn't pan out. Would Harvey or the others have scored any points at SEC? We'll never know, but, a decent coach (as opposed to decent recruiter) could have gotten those girls up to that level.
It's a little odd that you keep repeating things like "one side is told by disgruntled, underachieving folks instead of investigating facts" -- are you making up these things as you go along? If you have to make up facts, and cannot stick to real world events, it means you don't have a real argument.
I don't really get what you, and other defenders of the University of Tennessee, and Beth Alford-Sullivan are trying to justify. If you don't know any better, it could make sense when you make up facts, to make it seem like this is just normal cut of under-performing athletes. But the fact is, this kind of cut, at this time of year, of your top freshman recruits, before they've even had a chance to perform, looks pretty much unprecedented. No one understands it. And it seems to me completely unnecessary. I don't see the urgency of not letting them compete this year, and waiting to replace them next year, while giving the athletes time to setup a situation to transfer next year. The scholarship money is already gone for this year, and it hardly seems like the radical changes will bring any benefits in the first year.
From "The Shadow League" article, we see that those athletes that were cut were not just low level performers who couldn't make the cut. In the case of Morgan Harvey, for example, she was one of the nation's top recruits, and the fastest sprint/hurdler on the team.
Others seem to assume that for the athletes, it's somehow only about the scholarship money -- that's it's OK because they could still keep the money this year. In a shallow world, where money is the only important thing, getting "one year of FREE school" makes it sound like there is no damage. But the reality and the tragedy of this situation is that a bargain was struck between the athletes and the university that ultimately wasn't honored by the university, through no fault of the athlete. The athletes had several choices to make, and some chose to go to Tennessee based on the strength of the better offer -- an offer that ultimately was too good to be true. When a university offers you a full scholarship because of your desire and proven ability to run track, then actually running track for the university is a pretty high expectation. When you do not honor your commitments, (regardless of abiding by legal and contractual terms, which I'm sure favor the university), it is still correct to say the reneging of the bargain is dishonorable.
What the University of Tennessee, and Beth Alford-Sullivan lost, and deserve to lose, was honor and trust. Future student athletes should be skeptical, and question whether the school can be trusted to help develop the potential careers of these athletes.
check another wrote:
See their 2015 performance list. No points at all in 400 IM, and Harvey's 100 M hurdles so far this year (a disrupted one at that) would put her 2nd on the team. Distance scores are weak for a DI.
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/tenn/sports/c-xctrack/auto_pdf/2014-15/misc_non_event/2015WomensOutdoorTopTimes.pdfWhat they could have done is brought these kids in at the beginning of the year, said we are heading in a different direction so you'll have to prove yourself this year to retain your scholarship: run Y times and score X points at conference/regionals.
By kicking them off the team short term they threw away 2015 points and long term (for a year or two at least) they have damaged the reputation of the program.
Another vote for this sensible reply.
BAS was in a no-lose situation and screwed it up by appearing to think she is an above-it-all, know-everything. She could have improved and built upon what was there without any pressure to succeed since it was "the previous coach's recruits." She could have had a talk with the entire team before the season telling them of her standards and what they needed to accomplish to be invited to stick around past the first year. She could have potentially endeared the athletes there by telling them that 'instead of dropping you now as I could, I will do the right thing for you as a person, honor your signing for the first year, and give you chance to earn your chance to stay. Here is what it will take. If this seems too high or unrealistic, start communicating with coaches about transferring or even quit now. You will not lose your scholarship through the end of the school year. If your attitude becomes detrimental along the way, I will make the decision for you.'
It is soooo easy to treat young motivated people respectfully and the way they should be treated without jeopardizing your goals and standards as a coach. BAS missed the ball by a mile.
just the facts, I agree that BAS would have been smarter to do that (although I admittedly do not know the whole story - only what is being told by the parents and former student-athletes - and that is not always reliable). It seems like it would have been a better move. The only reason I have posted here is because it just gets old seeing so many ignorant remarks and watching people TRY to get back at someone.
I still think that the parents are only hurting the athletes chances to be in a better situation by posting on here. They can waste their time and do it but only a very foolish high school recruit (and I know there are plenty of those) would use letsrun to make a decision on a school without knowing the whole situation.
Haha, Those recruits and ultimately their parents feel betrayed. Especially being led along to enroll and a few weeks into the school year have the lead balloon dropped on you potentially stealing your freshman year of college track, probably a lifetime goal. They are reacting emotionally. Yes, they are probably trying to get back in any way possible, but is there something wrong with sharing their experience? Why shouldn't future recruits ask about the situation? If an athlete was a problem and wanted to transfer, don't you think a coach, BAS in this situation, would tell other coaches about the problems with the athletes? College coaches, I once was one, are thick as thieves.
Maybe too simple, but treat people the way you would want yourself or your family treated. It can be done without compromising principles or goals. Honesty, respect, and communication,....done!
You might have a leg to stand if in fact the cut athletes were not SEC material but that is just not true.
Hahaha!! wrote:
Just to keep this at the top so your children will see what a clown you are once they realize the world isn't out to get them.
I am sorry that you still can't get it. You are missing by a long shot but it has been thoughtfully explained several times. I am no longer going to assume that you can figure relatively simple things out. The very simple fact that your child got to keep her scholarship for a year despite not being SEC/high level NCAA material and you are whining says it all. The very simple fact that you are a helicopter parent trying to solve every problem for your child says it all. Nearly ANY person in college would love the free year that did not use up their eligibility. FREE college! How horrible! Oh, I am sorry that they could not use the facilities until the real athletes left. That is horrible too. I am sorry that the mean woman BAS followed the contract fully and somehow you cant figure it out. I am also sorry for you that the former staff overpaid for athletes on purpose to put the new staff in a bind. Why doesn't she transfer to UCONN? Is she too good for UCONN? Or is JJ no longer that interested in her because now it is scholarship money at a school he knows he will be at? Have you ever thought that may be the case? BAS did not cut your daughters scholarship. She did not renew for next year and obviously felt that she was not someone she wanted on the team.
I was a college athlete and I know for sure that I would hate for my parent to be posting this BS that you post trying to protect me. I am also a parent and I want to my children to learn how to take care of themselves so they have skills for life. They are younger than your daughter but I still would not be pulling this crap. They will be independent, strong people. I will be there for them in case it is something really bad - not getting cut from the team. You probably call up their boyfriends when they get dumped too!
Morals?! You know nothing of morals, ethics or raising a child and that is obvious. Parents like you are a huge reason that there are frivolous lawsuits and our country is so f'd up. It is always someone else's fault. Good luck to your kids! College athletics is not just about participation. The SEC conference is brutal. And to whomever said winning isn't important at Tennessee then you are absolutely clueless. Why the heck is JJ no longer there? Please tell me that one. The guy won numerous NCAA titles but was in steep decline over the last few years. You tell JJ that he wasn't fired for performance and there is no pressure to win you freakin idiot. JJ is a very good man but wasn't winning. That is the real life that you may want to teach your children about before it smacks them in the face. I feel so sorry for those kids that they did not have a leader for a parent.
ohmgee wrote:
Why is Beth going to suffer personal greif? If you are telling strangers off at age 18 because you read stuff on a message board, you ain't going to have anything to lose for a long time. I can assure you Beth appeared the better person and you a little brat when you said that, and i dont know u or Beth. Most people viewed it like your Mom did.....because most people don't read letsrun. Congrats on humiliating yourself, your mom, and your coach in public. I'm sure u are on here to justify your actions so u don't feel personal greif and you probably will get support from the letsrun fan boys, but it's a pretty male biased group. Any time they can bash a woman coach they will. If you want to "take a stand" you should have made the issues clear so your audience wouldn't take you for the bad bully person. State the issues not smuck about a fictitious college. U came off as haughty, in my opinion. Wasted opportunity.
lol at this post. Completely off-base.
Us male dominants are defending a female athlete btw
anyone wrote:
If you want to enact a new formula (don't spend a full ride on a hurdler and give a bunch of partials to distance runners), go for it, but at least give these girls the opportunity to train, let them know that at a minimum, you're going to dial back their scholly to < 100% or 0% and give them the option to transfer anywhere, including an SEC school.
^^^
This is what should have happened. Unfortunately a complete lack of common sense, compassion and integrity prevented it. Case closed.