Sub 1:50 800m Training

Rest for the saturday ladder was 400 jog between intervals until the 400, then 200 jog. Jog gets pushed hard...sub 8 minute mile pace so you dont recover too much

OldSub4 wrote:

We would be very specific on the tempos....try running at least the first mile and last mile on a track so you can measure pace and improvement

purposely did NOT do longer hills -- you start working on your anaerobic system too much, when all you want to do is stimulate the FT fibers and build power without a great deal of wear on your lower legs. Longer hills might make your legs feel better in the short term, but i think you are withdrawling instead of depositing into your base training

Schedule was fairly regimented...i remember bagging one workout in 3 years based on fatigue...the only others i missed were injury or illness.

Thanks, I might try running a tempo on the track to see where I am. Times on the track tell the truth better then anything.

The longer hills are not all out, they are at an aerobic pace, so fairly slow. About 1:40+ for 400m 10% slope. An anaerobic session would be 4X400m in 1:15-1:20, those are painfull. Or I will do high knees or buttkicks the whole way up at a slower pace. The emphasis is always running form, not pace. A longer hill workout is generally followed by 10-1 second sprints on the hill. A lot of times I just need a warm up before going into the sprints.

Do you think the increased structure during the base phase hurt or helped?

I agree completely. He's doing LT repeats but since he has the downhill he can maintain turnover of a pace that would normally be very anaerobic.

Snell used to do these too when he did hill circuits.

Really even OS4 states a 50% survival rate for elites. Rest is what allows you to benefit from the hard work. If 3 hard workouts a week plus a long run is not allowing you to recover from the hard work, then it is better to have more easy days.

You shouldn't just try to stuff it all in there because it makes you look good. OS4's schedules are elite level training with a 50% survival rate. I'm trying to give a different perspective on how you could use his schedules in a different way that might actually work better for some people. More isn't better for everyone and that's a fact.

Read below tough guy.

Yes, the upper body can be affected as well. The comment regarding your nipples is poignant. Your left pectorals are probably 'smaller' and tighter than your right. Your left shoulder is also probably tighter, and your trunk could be more anteriorly rotated from the left to the right.

Just watch any track race video with slow motion replays when runners are on the curve, esp with the camera positioned from the outside of the curve. You will notice that all runners will extend their left/inner leg more than their right/outer leg, activating hip flexors and adductors more to get that rotation around the turns,but in limited range of motion. The left shoulder will mostly be lifted higher and held more forward; this is the mechanics to achieve a constant left turning motion.

From my experience, this WILL eventually lead to postural anomalies that will hurt.

I'll provide one example here in the 1996 Atlanta Oly men 800m final. Watch esp eventual silver medalist hezekiel Sepeng's mechanics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbgCZgR-eno

I agree that non runners with leg length discrepancies wil exhibit similar symptoms, but this does not negate the fact that constantly rounding the curves making left turns will result in a functionally shorter left leg. We need to constantly seek balance both on and off the track in running and non-running aspects of training, or all that attention paid to form, periodisation, energy system development, etc, will lead only to frustration.

How well can you train if both halves of your body do not function the same way? You will be constantly fighting yourself. Often it is not in doing too much, but doing too much with imbalanced mechanics, that result in injury.

wellnow wrote:

I think the reason why Coe didn't run as well in 1982-3 was because he was overtraining. In the commentary, he talks about International athletes being tired all the time, but then goes on to say things about conserving energy which shows that he was becoming too obsessive about training.

Of course he did back to his best form with his sensational seven days of racing in LA 84

Yes, I agree that Coe was overtrained in 1982-83 and developed toxoplasmosis.

But I'm referring to the bigger picture, beyond 1982-83, up till the end of his career.

I'm a HUGE fan of training on the track. I love to run fast on track. But I cannot deny the obvious problems it can create in the LONG TERM.

Watch Coe on the final straight (1984 Oslo 800m) coming off the last bend. See how lopsided his mechanics have become as a result of rounding 4 long left turns at high speed. Rightleg splayed outwards, left shoulder higher and tensed, trunk tilted to the right, left hip/leg more anteriorly rotated & forward. This forces him to vary the stride length and frequency of each individual leg in order to land on balls of foot. He can't run in a straight line with an aligned body.

Imagine doing this for years and years on end.

Anthony Colotti wrote:

Snell used to do these too when he did hill circuits.

From Lydiard to Coe?

oh and what did you think about the QL related post i made?

I feel unwanted :( it's almost like i have to be a bit of a dickhead to get some replies/critiques.

So wellnow you're a dick! (will this work?)

Ok, I can sort of see what you mean in that video, but what if the changes caused by running the turns are necessary? After all, about half of any distance race is run on them, so maybe learning to run curves effeciently is just part of training and adaption?

Maybe someone who looks perfect running down the straights is losing time/energy on the curves, whereas someone like Coe loses a little time on the straights but a lot less time on the curves, and so is faster overall?

Curve running is a skill as well that is rarely talked about except for the 200m.

Up here in Canada we don't have a university outdoor season so the main focus is on indoor racing. Will there be great consequences for doing intervals all winter long on the indoor track? I have noticed that many of you believe elite runners undergo physical imbalances from running the curves on a 400 meter outdoor track, so does that mean the body could very well undergo catastrophic ailments due to long term 200 meter track training? I myself cannot stand the tiny indoor tracks for interval training but have no other options at the moment as our coach prefers to stay inside all winter.

poutine wrote:

Up here in Canada we don't have a university outdoor season so the main focus is on indoor racing. Will there be great consequences for doing intervals all winter long on the indoor track? I have noticed that many of you believe elite runners undergo physical imbalances from running the curves on a 400 meter outdoor track, so does that mean the body could very well undergo catastrophic ailments due to long term 200 meter track training? I myself cannot stand the tiny indoor tracks for interval training but have no other options at the moment as our coach prefers to stay inside all winter.

Is a different Canada than the one I live in?

'Cuz I seem to recall running outdoors at university.

man i don'tknow about the necessary, it seems to be a flaw to me and one to be avoided.

i think the understanding that this is a problem is well known and many coaches avoid regular circular track work because of it. For me as a decathlete bend running was a pretty small part of training and it seems Igloi avoided the problem with his methods as did Lydiard and Cerutty. A good XC season and total avoidance of tracks during 6 months of the year would help prevent one-sidedness as well.

fUrCeOsNhN wrote:

Ok, I can sort of see what you mean in that video, but what if the changes caused by running the turns are necessary? After all, about half of any distance race is run on them, so maybe learning to run curves effeciently is just part of training and adaption?

Maybe someone who looks perfect running down the straights is losing time/energy on the curves, whereas someone like Coe loses a little time on the straights but a lot less time on the curves, and so is faster overall?

Curve running is a skill as well that is rarely talked about except for the 200m.

I am by no means saying that we should never ever run on track, or that we should not try to master efficient curve running. Coe coming out of the curve running as if he was still on it is a sign that he has made mostly left turns while track training, and that he hasn't spent the necessary time sorting out those imbalances after each track session. For me, at least, I believe the balance is to run in both directions on the track, and to incorporate the kind of remedial work that "flow" recommended to regain pelvic balance (from glutes to TFL to adductors to psoas to quadratus lumborum)on a regular basis.

And yes, whenever possible, train off track. But no, do not totally ban track work making left turns and do not neglect efficient curve running. That's why I posted way earlier asking Old Sub 4 questions regarding curve running technique & how elites cope with track running.

(And by the way, "flow", I've tried your MET Yoga technique and it truly works for me)

Also, compare Coe's form in his earlier races, like in the late 1970s to maybe 1981, and you will see that the lopsided form in the last straight is not apparent, even under duress. I believe what we see in subsequent years is cumulative, such that his gait has suffered.

Compare this with people who train less on the track overall (at least that is what they claim) like Hicham El Guerrouj, Bernard Lagat, and esp Craig Mottram. They rarely, if ever, display that kind of lopsided form when they emerge from the curves.

Alan Webb has had a history of hip problems since high school such that he has a hitch in his stride when problems arise. I see this as the result of running too many sessions on track. But from what little I know, he has his body straightened out by chiropractors whenever possible. However, the same old injuries keep recurring within the last 4-5 years. This is so even though Webb is a diligent weight lifter & does tons of core work & cross training. I believe that's partly why he has often faltered at the tail end of track seasons & at global championship meets: too much track.

My experience is that once the imbalances develop, it is very hard to reverse it, and you need great discipline to keep on resetting your alignment. You might even need specific strengthening work to keep that left hip strong and elastic.

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Yes, I was refering to 1500/5000m runners who also need a fast 800. I am sure that there are such runners who can run 1.49 or even 1.48 without being able to break 51. The reason we don't meet them is probably because it's so hard to focus on all of the necessary speed endurance requirements in training and get the best times in racing over 400,800,1500 and 5000 so we do what we can and hope for the best, sometimes we get that perfect race, but it's rare.

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My own feeling on this type of session, where the downhill grade is very slight, in this case less than 2% is that it is a very good way to pracitce running very fast without the same cardiovascular stress as running the same speed on the track. It was of course very hard on his legs and his feet. I believe that assisted speed endurance sessions such as this help us to learn a longer stride with a fast turnover. It's all about aquiring the skill to hold that pace for longer, all the uphill work in the world won't do this because it shortens our stride. I think that uphill running helps most when our legs are tired from the faster paced stuff.

I am sure that Peter Coe was so meticulous that he probably paced out the entire three miles with a measuring wheel, just to make sure of the accuracy, and noted the best places to start and stop each effort.

There is one funny moment where Seb complains that the effort was 100m long and Peter says with a smile:

"I can't do anything about it, it's this bloody traffic....well it was 1.59 so it was long but not 100m, only is seems like it ha ha ha....."

wellnow,

Would you recommend this for a high school 5K runner who has run 15:35 this past fall? Or some variation of it? It may be too much volume for him at this point. And the times would have to be adjusted. Ran 60 mpw during cross. Long run of 18 miles. Goal is sub 4:20 1600.

Thank you!

HSC wrote:

wellnow,

Would you recommend this for a high school 5K runner who has run 15:35 this past fall? Or some variation of it? It may be too much volume for him at this point. And the times would have to be adjusted. Ran 60 mpw during cross. Long run of 18 miles. Goal is sub 4:20 1600.

Thank you!

Was refering to the 1600, 1200, etc. Sorry!

Ok, so I got a training question OldSub4, I do admit a weakness when it comes to my own training (second guessing).

I'm doing LT 800's (6) w/60s rest. Should I move up to 8 or stay at 6? What would be a good progression as indoors approaches? Thanks.

HSC wrote:

wellnow,

Thank you!

almost the only time people say thankyou in this forum are to wellnow and this is usually wellnow asking himself a question in his quest to be seen as an expert