LateRunnerPhil - Tinman Training Through Summer to 5k PR in Sep (Goal ~15:30)

tree lover wrote:

tree lover wrote:

How old are you?

Is your age a secret for some reason? It provides some context for "completely sedentary" and your current performances.

Just turned 32. Completely sedentary from 15-23 years old. Then mostly swim/bike until I turned 30, from where I finally was able to start running frequently and increase mileage. So definitely more of a late-bloomer, I never broke 6:30 in the mile when my parents entered me in the track club from when I was 11-13 and wasn't good in road races either except very short ones up to 600m. The longer it was, the worse I was. After it was just 2x weekly sport session in school and lots of video gaming.

When I started endurance sports again after 23, my first 5k was in a hot triathlon 26:22. One year training already made me quite decent, next one was already in the 22 min range. Half a year later 20:40 and 20:30, maybe I ran once every 2 weeks but after each run my shin splints just hurt so much. So just cycling/swimming already made me quite fast over 5k.

In 2016-2017 I ran maybe 1-2x a week, for roughly half the year at roughly 6 min/k pace (9:40 min/mi). I didn't get better during that time, but my legs started giving me less shin splints pain. I knew that if I can get from unable to run 1 mile straight and a 30+ min 5k to a 20 min 5k with just cross-training, I can probably get much faster if I manage to get rid of shin splints and start to run and train like a real runner.

Since 2018, starting with 10 mpw and a 20 min 5k, I've been on a roll and improved on a steady pace. I did train too hard at times, in the beginning I would dry heave and get sick after most interval workouts and tempos but my body adapted and I got smarter over time. My pace on some segments that I hit during easy runs improved tremendously. Running really isn't mostly about the talent/starting level, endurance can be improved well above what most people think is possible, with the right training and dedication to the sport.

I wouldn't make this thread if I was just a HS kid naturally improving, but there are many runners like me who focused on other things in life (gaming, social life, career, studies, etc) and start in their mid-late 20s or 30s and still want to get at least decent enough to win a local road race or something, for them it's interesting.

u should post on reddit. u'd love it there

coahc wrote:

So what I am trying to say is keep it simple, get in the right race and keep enjoying your training. You are the only one who really cares how fast you run and I hope that you achieve your goals.

Now there are many trolls on this site but my career stands up pretty well so take what you want.

Good luck to you. Maybe take up coaching. Private coaching is a good business and you never know when you get a chance to work with someone special.

i like your passion for running but sometimes it looks like you'd rather talk to others and with others about yourself or wait for a sign from tinman.

the post from cohac gets to the point and he has good tips for runners, for me one of the best coaches here. i really don't know why you are increasing from 50 or 60 miles to over 90. this is as serious a mistake as excessive pace in your workouts, because the training is simply not continuous and injuries are pre-programmed.

those who do not reach 15:30 with continuous training of 50 or 60 miles and two workouts per week should not have any illusions about where their own limits are. i also don't think that someone who really loves running spends so much time on tables, posts and justifications. please don't get me wrong.

the post above is adressed to laterunnerphil.

i don't play bingo wrote:

the post from cohac gets to the point and he has good tips for runners, for me one of the best coaches here. i really don't know why you are increasing from 50 or 60 miles to over 90. this is as serious a mistake as excessive pace in your workouts, because the training is simply not continuous and injuries are pre-programmed.

those who do not reach 15:30 with continuous training of 50 or 60 miles and two workouts per week should not have any illusions about where their own limits are. i also don't think that someone who really loves running spends so much time on tables, posts and justifications. please don't get me wrong.

Because I enjoy running. Most of the miles increased came from doubles, only 3 runs each week are longer than 60 minutes (LR, Q1, Q2). You can get very far with 60+30 days. In the training camp I experimented with it, 30 min jog before breakfast, 60 min run/workout at noon, swim or strength before dinner. No issues, apart from strong muscle pain/soreness due to lifting heavy weights out of nowhere.

Back at home I kept my mileage up. Yes, I know I don't have talent and am still slow. But hard training and dedication and taking are of all the little things already made me faster than people with more talent. When we were 11-13 year old kids, no one trained seriously yet there were some who frequently ran in the 5-6 min 1-mile range whereas I never broke 6:30. But now I'm training more than others, and more effective, and run faster than some of these great talents that just had innate endurance.

Easy miles don't get me injured. Key is to make the doubles very slow. I don't expect to get much faster off it compared to 60-70 mpw, but I enjoy running through the forests and trails more than sitting around these days.

Why I do so much research about optimal training, use science and tables/numbers do track everything? Yes, it takes effort. It's because I've seen, inefficient training gets me nowhere. I couldn't break 20 mins 5k for 7 years. I was constantly injured cos I trained too hard, even on 10 mpw. I ran each workout as hard as I could, and was out for 1-2 months after. I blamed it on my body not being able to handle running. Truth is, 99% of it was in my head. I trained wrong, made many mistakes and lost 7 years of my development.

Only after getting tested/coached in early 2018, and changing my training, later learning about Tinman training, I started to make consistent improvements, was still often sore/fatigued but not hard-injured anymore, and able to increase training load. That's when I started getting better. There are millions people out there who do the same mistakes I did when I picked up (or tried to pick up) running in my early/mid 20's. I don't want them to repeat the same mistakes I did and help them also win some road races or whatever is within their ability.

Re talent:

There are people with:

Low untrained endurance

Average untrained endurance

High untrained endurance

Then there are:

Low responders to endurance training

Average responders

High responsers.

In this case you seem to have low untrained endurance and above average trainability. Hence you should not call yourself untalented. Although, as previous poster said, it seems part of your identity whcih you also atribute to Reed Fischer and other athletes, as hard working low talent athletes. Which is simply not true. Good luck, looking forward to TT/race reports.

OldFish. wrote:

Re talent:

There are people with:

Low untrained endurance

Average untrained endurance

High untrained endurance

Then there are:

Low responders to endurance training

Average responders

High responsers.

In this case you seem to have low untrained endurance and above average trainability. Hence you should not call yourself untalented. Although, as previous poster said, it seems part of your identity whcih you also atribute to Reed Fischer and other athletes, as hard working low talent athletes. Which is simply not true. Good luck, looking forward to TT/race reports.

Good post, but maybe the people with low untrained endurance who improve more than others are doing so because they are taking running more seriously, train more intelligent/smart, listen to coaches etc? I have been in a so called "recreational running group" in the beginning, and didn't get any better. No one trains well in such groups, everyone does tempos either too hard (like myself, each tempo was racing the others) or too slow (unable to leave comfort zone). Long runs were either too fast (myself) or too long (runners doing 17-20 mile long runs lasting 3-4h+ on 35 mpw and other insanity). Interval workouts were either all-out with big positive splits and hanging on (myself) or barely faster than average distance run pace in other people. 2 years since I left such a group, I'm the only one who improved significantly, the others who were usually 18-25 min guys (I was a 21 min guy back then) all remained on the same level, no one made good improvements. One friend, who was in the same group left a year ago and got coaching, and finally started improving rapidly.

Running and training is incredibly complex, most HS coaches are bad but still much better than runners who run just by themselves or in a random running group with lots of social aspects. Even if "respond rate to training" matters, Magness himself said it doesn't, people just need different training/stimulus. Some thrive on mileage, some on Igloi-style aerobic intervals, some on threshold training, some on 5k paced training, etc. If someone doesn't improve, maybe he would under a different training program.

Hey Phil! Can`t agree running and training is incredibly complex, you just got to know what works and what`s common to all great training systems in history, and then just add some other specialties. Then you just mix it in a very smart way and you get one of the most effective systems ever.Aren`t you curious how this system would work for you? The plan you had now seem to me will not give what you hope for, why don`t try a system that guarantees you success and reaching your true potential?

The two most annoying know-it-all posters on LRC come together!!!!

The all time annoying exacta rolls in wrote:

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

Hey Phil! Can`t agree running and training is incredibly complex, you just got to know what works and what`s common to all great training systems in history, and then just add some other specialties. Then you just mix it in a very smart way and you get one of the most effective systems ever.Aren`t you curious how this system would work for you? The plan you had now seem to me will not give what you hope for, why don`t try a system that guarantees you success and reaching your true potential?

The two most annoying know-it-all posters on LRC come together!!!!

They're both know-it-alls, so the next move is Phil offering to coach JS. How could JS do with Phil's understanding of the Tinman system? Or they can coach eachother simultaneously.

The prototype wrote:

The all time annoying exacta rolls in wrote:

The two most annoying know-it-all posters on LRC come together!!!!

They're both know-it-alls, so the next move is Phil offering to coach JS. How could JS do with Phil's understanding of the Tinman system? Or they can coach eachother simultaneously.

But they are very different. JS a top online coach and Phil just a wannabe. Time for Phil to follow the magic coach!

Dr Slow Twitch wrote:

The prototype wrote:

They're both know-it-alls, so the next move is Phil offering to coach JS. How could JS do with Phil's understanding of the Tinman system? Or they can coach eachother simultaneously.

But they are very different. JS a top online coach and Phil just a wannabe. Time for Phil to follow the magic coach!

Well, hello JS. I am a linguistics expert. You are busted.

Phil, I'm one of the guys who commented on your last thread and, as mentioned, have worked with Tom for some years. I'd be happy to give you some feedback on your posted schedule, but it's hard to know what to make of the target times without having any recent reference time trial or races. Tom, as you know, normally starts his new runners with a 2km or 2.4km time trial as a starting point for paces. Have you run a TT of any kind lately (regardless of distance)? If not, what are you using as a reference time and, being honest with yourself, how realistic is it?

By the way, I took a look at the schedule and already think it's too hard. :-) Is that really a "Tinman" schedule that you paid for or did you adjust it or come up with it on your own? If so, I'm surprised. Tom doesn't give us mere mortals 7 x 1km multi-pace workouts, and certainly not 8 x 1km. I'm as fast (slow) as you are, though I'm quite a bit older, and I top out at 6 x 1km. Remember, total CV volume is a function of speed, so the Tinman Elite guys will do 7 but not us 16 minute guys. He also doesn't have us do further workouts on TT days. As others have said, you're so motivated that it seems like you are still trying to cram too much in. It's not about squeezing in as much as possible, it's to "keep the ball rolling", my friend!

With all that said, good for you. If you want to try Tinman training, which you obviously do and are clearly a fan, go for it. It's a mystery to me why people get on here and start busting on the training or you or start debates about FT vs ST, etc. Just ignore them.

Good post, sadly gotta agree with it. The reason why I'm increasing volume on CV reps is so I don't cheat myself through them. When it's 5x1k or max 6x1k like in the past, I would run/force them at 5k pace and somehow get through them. When it's 7-8x1k, I can't just hammer each rep so they will be closer to true CV pace making it a better/less stressful workout. The multi-paces are what I enjoy, I always hated the "CV" portion of these workouts (probably cos it was 5k pace with short rest) but liked some quick hills or 200s after (but even these were too fast, I think).

Look what Drew Hunter did, in the year he went from 18:15 to 15:45 5k (XC) in HS. 5-6x1k+4x200 in 33 and 3-4 mile Tinman Tempos. Max mileage 50-60 mpw. That's nothing compared to what I'm doing, even tho I'm a bit slower (~16:45 5k XC ability).

But do you really think I would be as fast as Drew on the same training? I probably need to do a lot more, and train harder, to reach the level he reached with low stress/ease. Obviously, my "ultimate" level is also much slower than his, maybe only 15:00 5k (which would already be a great achievement) instead of 13:20.

I use the 12-week summer training plan from Tinman on Finalsurge, but started right at the volume of the last 1-2 weeks (he builds up in the plan from lower mileage/CV reps/tempo duration to around the volume I'm doing now). I have a 7k TT (virtual race), and 2k TT coming up soon. Will obviously only do them if the weather is okay, so max 60F or something and no sun out.

Hello Tom! Welcome to the debate! How much do you pay him monthly to lurch your crap?))

Phil, I think you should sit down, take a deep breath, and re-read your last post with an open mind. No offense, but it's a deeply ironic post by you given the whole point of this thread was how you realized that you were over-training previously and disregarding the well-intended advice you were getting. I don't really care how you train, but as someone who has worked on and off with Tom for 6-7 years, if you really want to implement his training approach then you really need to re-think what you're doing. First of all, the idea of adding more volume than even the elite guys are doing is insane. To do it because "you need to work even harder than they do given your lesser talent" truly is insane. To do it to force yourself to slow down is also insane. Just slow down! You can do it, really! It won't kill you! Run no more than 6 x 1km, and do it at the proper pace. Better yet, start with 4-5 and work up to 6. Btw, your threshold 1600s are way too many. I've never had to do more than 4 x 1600 when I had hills and other stuff after it. Second, Tom is a huge believer in running paces based off current (that day's) fitness. All the paces in your schedule look to be roughly based on your all-time 5km PR. NO! Remember, it's not supposed to be paces based on a recent PR, but even slower still because you need to take into account that on workout day you're a little fatigued and there's no race-day adrenaline or competition. Literally every single one of your paces is too fast. Last, the time trials: never heard of Tom assigning a 7km time trial. But he's nothing if not flexible, so go for it if you want. But I imagine he'd treat it as a race and build in more recovery. So don't run hard for another 4-5 days. And don't be silly and put in more work after any TT. Again, you can obviously do whatever you want, but what you're doing is not "Tinman training". Listen or not. Not trying to be harsh here, but I'm just baffled by your last post...

Listen to Tom , Phil! What you are doing isn't Tinman training, but you need something else,

a magical program that takes you to your dreams!

Phil is to Tinman Training as Greg is to a Screenwriters Improvement group.

Tinpuff clearly has narcissistic personality disorder and you all are feeding the monster.