Frank Shorter vs. Jim Ryun. Who ya got?

Actually, Ryun was the third high schooler to beat Snell in the mile that year.

Rupp fan wrote:

Ryun would still be a medal threat today imo. Give him one year of modern training with modern equipment and he would be running 3:28 in Monaco. I do not feel the same way about Shorter. I tend to think he would not break 27. I do think he would run 2:06 or so in Vaporflys though.

Ryun's win over Lagat was just. But Shorter robbed Rupp thanks to the brojos. Ryun>Lagat>Shorter. Shorter should be in 4th place, not contending for the win.

So you figure shoes can change things by 4 minutes? It's ironic that you're a Rupp fan, since he wouldn't break 2:10 even on a pool-table flat course in perfect conditions without them if your analysis is correct. One of 2 things is true:

1. The shoes don't do much. Rupp could run a similar time to Hall in similar shoes. Maybe they're worth the 10 seconds that he's ahead of Hall on a similar course. In this case, Frank is still barely making the top-10 in some races today.

2, The shoes have a huge effect. Several minutes, in fact enough to get Shorter competitive in the biggest races today. Rupp is ahead of Burfoot but maybe not Bjorklund in similar shoes. Just another 2:10-2:11 marathoner. Competitive with Stinson but way behind Hall.

malmo wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

The race was the equivalent of someone taking Ryun when he wasn't at his best form and at the end if his career. Or like Keino beating him at Mexico in '68.

Actually, no. That mile was one of Snell's best ever.

Anyone who saw Snell at his peak could see he wasn't that runner in '65. Same as Ryun in '68.

malmo wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

The race was the equivalent of someone taking Ryun when he wasn't at his best form and at the end if his career. Or like Keino beating him at Mexico in '68.

Actually, no. That mile was one of Snell's best ever.

How many mile races did Snell actually run?

Steve Ovett's 1:44.81 in the LA semi-final was one of his fastest 800m times ever. In fact, it was faster than he ran in Moscow. Does that mean he was in great shape in that LA semi?

Clearly Ovett wasn't in his best shape, and clearly Snell was not in his best shape when he lost to Ryun.

Mo G wrote:

It's strange to think that Ryun would still have been young enough to run the 1500 in Moscow.

There's all sorts of scenarios where a longer career would have created match-ups that are likely not thought of.

Herb Elliott versus Viren in the Munich 5000.

Jazy should have kept going to Mexico

Yes, that's true. Such a shame athletes back then weren't really able to keep going past their mid twenties.

It's also crazy to think that if El G had retired at the same age as Herb Elliott, or succumbed to something like mono at the same age as Ryun, his pbs would have been only slightly faster than Elliott, and slower than Ryun's. Despite faster tracks, better competition, better shoes, far more races and paced races, and of course (highly likely) the EPO and HGH.

Coevett wrote:

malmo wrote:

Actually, no. That mile was one of Snell's best ever.

How many mile races did Snell actually run?

Steve Ovett's 1:44.81 in the LA semi-final was one of his fastest 800m times ever. In fact, it was faster than he ran in Moscow. Does that mean he was in great shape in that LA semi?

Clearly Ovett wasn't in his best shape, and clearly Snell was not in his best shape when he lost to Ryun.

Yes, times are not the full story. Snell trained primarily for championships. In 5 years he never lost a championship or race he needed to win - like the challenges in '63 from Jim Beatty, the then world indoor mile record holder. Ryun's win over Snell in '65 was impressive but it wasn't by any stretch the Snell of the previous 5 years, who had demolished the world's best at Tokyo in '64. He wasn't trained to the same level, he struggled throughout that tour, lost several times and he was basically farewelling the sport.

By the same token, after '67 I don't think I ever saw Ryun compete again at the same level as that year. His apogee was his world record 1500m at the Colosseum Relays in '67. A breathtaking performance. But history does not judge him to be a great championship runner. The top titles aren't there. An incredible teenage talent that was never really fulfilled.

Ryun was truly remarkable but this website would probably not be in existence today if it wasn't for Frank's win in Munich.

Giles Corey wrote:

Ryun over Shorter at any distance up to and including two miles.

Shorter over Ryun at six miles and up.

Three miles and 5k -- unknown.

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kw1954 wrote:

Both are on my Mt. Rushmore of American running immortals.

Not to be corny, but if they are Washington and Jefferson respectively, who you got as Lincoln and Roosevelt?

Rupp and Centro.

I'm not including Lagat because for me part of this is that you developed here. Lagat came over fully formed like Khannouchi.

GoldenMile wrote:

I actually didn't know that Ryun broke the WR by such big margins. That's a great fact for this poll. I'm not sure who I'm voting for yet honestly. I'm tempted by Shorter, but I have to research the subject more before placing a vote.

I always wonder why Ryun didn't have a longer career, other than that was very abnormal back then before pro running was a big thing.

Ryun had a pretty long career. The standard back then was to run through college, go to the next olympics and retire. See Wottle who retired at like 24. Or Dyrol Burleson. Or Herb Elliot. Peter Snell was done at 26. There were a few exceptions who keep grinding away but they were the exceptions not the rule. It was a different time.

In the end Ryun is the what if career. Getting silver in Mexico city is pretty nuts but silver isn't gold. We can debate forever if that race was fair or not but it is what is.. Keino was having a great day. He might still have one. Same thing about 1972. 1972 Ryun wasn't 1967 Ryun but he was good enough. that you. could imagine him kicking it down the home stretch for the win. We will never know.

You can say the same thing about a bunch. of guys. If Marty Liquori could have stayed healthy, maybe he would have been one of the best US 1500m guys ever (i.e. he was #1 in the world for a couple years but missed 72 and. 76 with injuries).

Ryun choked in big races

Congratulations to Jim Ryun voted as the GOAT American distance runner.

My heart won over my head...

I have nothing better to do so I'm going to do an illustration of my Mt Rushmore of four American immortals (for the record, I'm a retired graphic designer)...

Jim Ryun is my George Washington and Frank Shorter is my Thomas Jefferson.

My creative mind wants to put Steve Prefontaine as Teddy Roosevelt (the fearless, maverick type).

I don't have an Abe Lincoln yet (statesman type). Anyone have any suggestions?

I'll post my illustration when I have it done.

Cheers!

PT in Eugene wrote:

Actually, Ryun was the third high schooler to beat Snell in the mile that year.

Are you referring to the mile he ran in Europe where he finished last, suffering from gastro enteritis? Apart from losing to Ryun, he had losses in his final tour to Crothers, Odlozil and Grelle (none of whom were high schoolers)

- and retired in July '65.

Bob schul country wrote:

Giles Corey wrote:

Ryun over Shorter at any distance up to and including two miles.

Shorter over Ryun at six miles and up.

Three miles and 5k -- unknown.

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Pointless comparison. They were specialists over completely different events and even if contemporaries would never have raced each other.

This I would like to see.

Jakob ingebrigsten beat centrowitz at Payton Jordan 1500

I think Ryan still has the US junior record in the 2 mile 8:25. I don't think Shorter had quite that kind of turnover--certainly not when he was in college

Is it Ryun or Cunningham? Shorter or Rogers? The rest is just kissing your cousin, silly and a waste of time. Better to do a workout.

Back in 1968 altitude training was considered cheating if you did not live at altitude giving the African runners a huge advantage.