8th Graders at NXN

From 8th through 12th grades. I rather doubt Nike would have barred her from running this year!!!!!!!

rocky mtns wrote:

Not this sh*t again wrote:

However, the entire purpose of NXN is to have a championship race between high school teams AS THEY ACTUALLY EXISTED AND RAN DURING THE SEASON.

Not entirely true. Nike allows athletes ineligible for varsity (due to transferring) to race for their team at NXR and NXN.

I read that thread, but I don't have enough knowledge of the specifics to comment on the substance of it beyond to ask a couple question. My understanding is that if you were eligible for JV competition then Nike would allow you to compete? Is that correct? If so, I know when I ran I could compete in JV when I was in 8th grade, but was not eligible for varsity competition under my states rules. Would that be good enough to allow for NXN entry on a club team?

Anyway, to address the main thing, these rules are never going to perfectly replicate the teams as they existed during the season and I would kind of group this situation under that. I think if you are ineligible for varsity competition then you should be ineligible for NXN. I don't know how much of that is a confirmation problem or a whole in the rules. I don't know what verification Nike takes for competitors or whether it is an honor system.

One person is complaining about he different rules using the example of a chess match where one person gets 10 minutes and the other gets 2 minutes to make a move - absolutely stupid comparison.

XC is a very basic sport - one starting line (for all runners) and one finish line (for all runners). The rules of executing during the competition are the same. The example given just doesn't fit.

Personally, I would prefer that young runners in 7th and 8th grade aren't allowed to run in high school meets overall. There is no need to rush these kids. However, if they are allowed to compete at HS level during the season then they absolutely should be able to continue this in post season.

I think the NXN is a great event. I've been to 6-7 NXR meets and just love the energy and enthusiasm for the sport. Geezes, quit whining. It's just high school sports and part of the high school sports experience is to learn how to simple do your best. Get over yourselves.

I honestly feel like the people who say "quit whining" are the worst kind of losers. It isn't whining to say there are discrepancies in rules that should be addressed. That is how events evolve. Nike is at a new course because of feedback or "whining" about the last course. It was a good move for them. The last course was plain stoopid.

Rules adjustments

1. 9-12 only

2. 4 years only per athlete

3. Athletes not eligible to compete by their state association due to transferring, not eligible to compete for their team at NXN.

Make these adjustments and NXN would be better for all competitors. Some teams put years into trying to stand on top of the podium. Minimizing that effort by saying someone is a whiner because they would like equal rules shows how out of it you actually are. Probably one of those coaches that says, "just gonna do an easy 3 and get outta here today."

You don't seem to care about the other inconsistencies that were brought up.

Some states have only 30 day transfer rules while others have a 1 year rule, does NXN enforce a one year restriction for all schools even though the transfer students have been competing for months and helped the team win the state meet? How about age limits. States are not consistent. So the old guy on the team gets booted by Nike because they enforce the lowest age of all states? How about summer contact? Some states allow it while others do not? DQ all states that coached in the summer? How about states that don't allow kids to compete against college runners or pros? Dq all runners who ran track meets against pros?

Quit whining.

i've coached collegiately for several decades and have coached national champions and several top 10 teams in XC. I have a sibling who ran at the NXN championship. I've presented at several coaching conferences. I am not "out of it". On the scoreboard my record would be considered solid. This being said I don't go about things by saying "just gonna do an easy 3 and get outta here today". I would argue that I have experience and perspective on my side. It is from these things that I form my opinion.

You are correct that things like the event can be improved upon. Getting a new course for NXN is probably a good thing but it wasn't because people were whining about fairness. Likely the selection of a better course was to make the event better for all, especially the athletes. The new course wasn't selected to make things "fairer" but rather just "better".

I have mentioned that I wouldn't want 7/8 graders competing at the varsity level of high school sports. However, some places allow this and thus their teams are formed and compete as such. Those teams get the opportunity to compete for state championships per their rules and some win championships with these young runners. It seems to me that Nike came up with an idea that basically says - we have champion teams from all the states, let's see which of those teams is really the best. Nike then created an event NXR/NXN to determine this. Basically a chance for each championship team to compete against each other and now we have this great event.

Nike is not an association like the NCAA or any high school federation. They just created a really cool event for kids to showcase how their high school team (and some individuals) match up after their regular season is over. The opportunity to participate and perform at NXN is incredible. It is a lifelong memory and experience no matter who wins. Whether you win or lose at NXN isn't as important to me as watching the kids work hard, set goals, compete the best they can. What i've learned over my many years including as a coach is that life isn't always fair. I've also learned that any recommendations for improvement should be with the best interests of all in mind, not just those that work best for me. I don't see how things are improved if you exclude 7/8 graders from NXN. All it might do is reshuffle the deck a bit but the important stuff that I explained earlier (lifetime experience, goal setting, competing...) don't change at all.

There is one thing that Nike has turned its head for. They have allowed ineligible athletes to compete as individuals even though the team was also competing.

Why does this thread continue to focus on the "WINNING" of racing middle school when the health of these young athletes is what really needs to be the primary concern for everyone? In the "post Mary Cain era" it is clear that it is not healthy for very young and developmental immature 7th and 8th graders to train at the levels necessary to compete at the elite NXN level. History has proven that Nikes promote a "win at all costs" system. You may think that they are "creating a cool event to showcase their high school team".....don't be so naive to get lost in the romanticized storyline of a Nike promoted "championship race" when it is ultimately a means to sell product. They "create an opportunity" at the expense of exploiting the youngest and most vulnerable athletes. This was further evidenced by post race award ceremonies where athletes were shivering in tiny nike racing kits next to race promoters & directors in full winter wear. IT IS ALL ABUSE. The potential long-term negative health consequences of using these middle school children at NXN Elite levels are far too great and it needs to stop. Good for those states that have regulations that do not allow middle school children to compete at the high school level. There are other many ways to field "championship level" teams that don't exploit our young athletes - shame on the teams that do.

Because there isn't any evidence that running in 7th or 8th grad leads to negative health consequences for these athletes.

Mary Cain's problems came when she was well over that age and quit scholastic running to join a professional team with a shady coach.

If you want people to take you seriously instead of just finding a different way to whine about not winning you are going to have to present some evidence. Calling it abuse is ridiculous.

Cain would have had a faster decline had she not been at such a high level. Ping is slowing but nothing to do with starting in JH.

Let them run in 7th/8th. 8th grade is a prime athletic year for many girls. equivalent to a 10th grade boy. THey run now, or risk losing them to soccer, volleyball, which have much more extensive club programs.

lets just say that you remove the 7/8 graders from NXN teams. However, these same 7/8 graders ran the entire fall season as varsity runners for their teams. Now you have perhaps a different NXN team finish (champion.....) than you would if the 7/8 graders ran. Is this then the best team in the nation? Not sure how it can be if the team at NXN is not the team that ran the rest of the year.

Yes, it is the best HIGH SCHOOL team in the nation. That is what the majority of people want, considering only a few people get to use 7/8. This should be a 9-12 only meet. Using younger than that is harmful, abusive, and unfair.

7th and 8th graders are defined as high schoolers in several of the states. Some states define high school as 10-12 and junior high as 7-9. Some states allow 20 years olds to compete. Some cut you off as soon as you turn 19.

Definer of language wrote:

7th and 8th graders are defined as high schoolers in several of the states. Some states define high school as 10-12 and junior high as 7-9. Some states allow 20 years olds to compete. Some cut you off as soon as you turn 19.

How are these kids training? I have an 8th grade girl who has run 19:25 at high altitude, but she only does about 20 mpw in 5-6 days (She was a competitive swimmer for a couple years before). I can’t imagine her be able to go to NXN and don’t want her to overachieve too early.

Are these 8th graders just hammering miles or uber talented or both?

I don't think 8th grade boys would make much of a difference but many times girls peak at 8th or 9th grade so it is a big advantage IMO on the girl's side.

It's only a stupid comparison if you are too stupid to understand basic logic. Read the post again, it was direct response to these two questions:

>>NXN follows high school rules. Why would they be more restrictive than the states that allow it?

>>Why would you not allow a runner who was part of the team all year not to be able to represent in the NXR/NXN?

The 10 minute rule example shows that accepting ALL state rules without exception could easily lead to an unfair situation, while trying to avoid the specifics of any rule of NXN because people get too defensive about certain rules.

It could be many things, such as one state allowing a significantly different age limit. Or a state allowing the formation of all star teams regardless of where someone lives. Any number of rules could be unfair in a multi-state competition. NXN should and does have ability to impose their own rules.

Once you free your mind of the dogma that all state rules must apply, it opens the door to many possibilities to improve the event. That is not a stupid idea.

4 Years wrote:

I don't care if 7th or 8th graders compete.

I don't care what transfers compete.

etc.

But no one should be able to compete for more than 4 years.

Run as a 7th grader? Fine, but even one race for your team means you are using a year of eligibility.

4 years to compete. Where and when is your choice.

This is still a disadvantage to schools that are less than 4 years, but they will be at less of a disadvantage.

You want to punish middle schoolers and high schoolers for being good at running?

Because that's effectively what this proposal is.