HS Phenom Nico Young 7x 1k 2:46 avg!!!!!!!

Partridge wrote:

With the very long recovery of 3 min it is possible to run a workout like that at 5 k pace or even a couple of seconds faster, and it won't be too hard.

So we can assume he might be around 13:50-14:00 for 5 k.

A lot of people in this thread just read about 2:46 and think "wow I couldn't do a single 1 k at that pace, it has to be extraordinarily hard".

Think about it like this:

You can do exactly 5x1k without any rest at your 5 k pace (by definition). Is it difficult to imagine that the pace is quite easy with a full 180 s rest each k, then, and even would be manageable to add just a 1 k rep or two?

Assuming the reps weren't short and assuming that is his 5K pace, that would mean he is capable of 13:50 (averaged 2:46) for 5K on wet grass. Tinman has estimated that grass is about 9-12 seconds slower per mile than grass depending on softness of grass. So even if we think Tinman's a bit off, let's say it's between 5-10 seconds faster. This workout would indicate Nico is more like 13:20-13:35 on the track. Seems aggressive to me.

Nico actually handled that workout decently. Jace and the other guys looked totally toasted.

Problem number one you are getting advise from

Tinman.

Creaky Bones wrote:

Nico actually handled that workout decently. Jace and the other guys looked totally toasted.

This is exactly how it ought to be. If you're a massive talent like Nico then you want to hold them back a little in high school. Those who can leverage success in high school to help them get a college degree ought to be doing just that.

7K at 5K pace is not that difficult. If this was more like 3K pace due to the grass slowing them down, then that is a very difficult workout for sure.

They definitely did it at faster than 5K pace effort-wise due to the grass.

Based on his other times, it seems Nico is probably in something like 13:50 - 14:04 shape (2:46 - 2:49 pace on a track). 13:50 assumes he has improved a bit from last track season to now. 14:04 is the equivalent of his 8:40 3200m at Arcadia. He did 7x2:46 on wet grass. I gotta think that's worth something like 2:42-3ish on a track, which would be 13:30-35 pace. Nico is a phenom, but I don't think he's a 13:30 runner yet.

Assume that he's improved from that 8:40 at Arcadia, which would be 2:43/KM. If he's in 8:35 shape, that's 2:41/KM. If he's in Verzbicas NR shape, that's 2:39 shape. So the workout seems slightly too hard for him. But that's not as big a concern as the guys behind him. He's a generational talent and he'll be fine if he gets good coaching in college. Jace Aschbrenner was finishing those reps like 5 seconds behind Young. Do you think he is a 14:00 - 14:20 5K runner? I do not. Brosnan probably wishes he had pulled the kid before the last rep.

There can be no reasonable debate that for 1500 - 5000 runners around this age, VO2 max work will get your kids into great shape quickly. The issue is that there is a lot less room to develop VO2 max than there is to develop aerobic capacity through LT work. All of the "powerhouse" HS programs use VO2 max workouts to get kids into shape quickly. The concern is that they risk injury, overtraining, burnout, unrealistic expectations of improvement, etc. on workouts that science has proven has significantly diminished returns over time.

Grass is a nice surface to run on. I'm sure you are one of those guys who think Peter Snell would have run sub 1:40 on modern tracks...

And I said 5 k pace for a workout like that would be quite easy and manageable. If you are peaking for a major race you might well do it much closer to 3 k pace with that long rest.

So it might not even indicate 13:50 5 k shape but something like 14:15-14:30 then. That is absolutely in line with his previous PRs.

Not a College Runner wrote:

This is way way way too hard for any high school runner to be doing.

He is not any High School runner. He could be the fastest ever

Very good summary!

The girls team really looked wiped.

By the way, where is the rest of the team?

You not going to get better running slow! And if it's post season (after league) only 7 can run.

And if you need a bit more authority than my previous opinions:

J. Daniels prescribes intervals at VO2 max pace with equal or a bit less recovery and a total volume of up to 20 min. The 2:46 / k would be the pace for a 13:44 runner.

Now you have two options:

1) Young might have slightly improved to be a 13:44 runner now

2) He is a 14:04 (+X) runner and might have run his intervals 3 (or more) seconds too fast. A bit more recovery than Daniels prescribed (3 min is actually a bit longer than equal time and not a bit less) might have helped with this. Quite likely this second option is true because a running camera motivated him additionally.

13:44 on grass though. Probably like 13:30 on a track.

Partridge wrote:

And if you need a bit more authority than my previous opinions:

J. Daniels prescribes intervals at VO2 max pace with equal or a bit less recovery and a total volume of up to 20 min. The 2:46 / k would be the pace for a 13:44 runner.

Now you have two options:

1) Young might have slightly improved to be a 13:44 runner now

2) He is a 14:04 (+X) runner and might have run his intervals 3 (or more) seconds too fast. A bit more recovery than Daniels prescribed (3 min is actually a bit longer than equal time and not a bit less) might have helped with this. Quite likely this second option is true because a running camera motivated him additionally.

All this information from charts are bogus.

Truth 101 wrote:

Partridge wrote:

And if you need a bit more authority than my previous opinions:

J. Daniels prescribes intervals at VO2 max pace with equal or a bit less recovery and a total volume of up to 20 min. The 2:46 / k would be the pace for a 13:44 runner.

Now you have two options:

1) Young might have slightly improved to be a 13:44 runner now

2) He is a 14:04 (+X) runner and might have run his intervals 3 (or more) seconds too fast. A bit more recovery than Daniels prescribed (3 min is actually a bit longer than equal time and not a bit less) might have helped with this. Quite likely this second option is true because a running camera motivated him additionally.

All this information from charts are bogus.

Totally! I would definitely think a coach with 4 years of experience coaching high school kids has a better handle on appropriate paces than the tools created by hacks like Daniels, Tinman and McMillian. Even though all of them think the paces are too fast, there is no way the Newbury coach could be overly excited to see some super fast high school kids PR in practice for their 1000 repeats. I’m sure you’re right.

IAAF tables put an 8:43 for full two miles at 13:41 for 5K. Even skewing the curve for a HS boy, that equates to low-13:50s. He is likely in 13:40-45 shape right now, which that workout supports, given the volume (though not the 3m rest). We'll get a better read on this soon, since no way three other kids are also low-13:40s, so he will dominate if that is his shape.

And no way is asking a freshman with a 14:58 3 mile PR to run their repeat at 2:55, which is significantly faster than their 3k pace out of line either.

Nico young wins nxn and shatters the course record. Bronsan isn't racing him a lot for a reason. If he were doing these workouts AND racing every weekend like a lot of high school runners, then there would be a higher chance of him burning out. I think he's got a lot of potential and Bronsan is maximizing it.

Oh no, he's running him hard him early, and he'll peak in his 20's! Just like almost every elite distance runner who has medaled or is on the top 25 list for 1500-10k!

Exactamundo wrote:

And no way is asking a freshman with a 14:58 3 mile PR to run their repeat at 2:55, which is significantly faster than their 3k pace out of line either.

Ok, when your 3 mile/5 k pace is around 2:59-3:00, then 2:55 is "significantly faster than their 3 k pace".

First think, then write. But maybe you just failed at simple math....

Ok, my mistake. Coming from the metric world I forgot the difference between 3 mile and 5 k. However, it is still close to his 3 k pace and why shouldn't he have improved just a couple of seconds per k.

Otherwise it just proves that the conditions and the workout were not as hard as many previous posters try to say.

Partridge wrote:

Exactamundo wrote:

And no way is asking a freshman with a 14:58 3 mile PR to run their repeat at 2:55, which is significantly faster than their 3k pace out of line either.

Ok, when your 3 mile/5 k pace is around 2:59-3:00, then 2:55 is "significantly faster than their 3 k pace".

First think, then write. But maybe you just failed at simple math....

Really? And apparently you have a higher degree in math?

You do know there is a difference between a 5k and 3 miles, correct? So, 14:58 3 mile is around 15:36-15:40 5k, depending on that calculator. Now, I’ll try to use my very limited math skills, but I think that’s 3:07/3:08 per K.

That 5k is roughly equivalent to a 8:53-8:55 3k, again depending on the calculator. That would be a 2:59 per k. Now, put 2:55 on wet grass and that is a LOT faster than 5k pace and significantly faster than 3k pace.

Just a suggestion, but may want to check with the local junior college where you took your math classes and double check my math. I definitely could have made a mistake or two since I’m not a math major like you.