Engels: almost quit running because of NC State

Lost respect wrote:

I've never been to Raleigh and never met Engles.

I am disappointed in any athlete that throws stones. It makes the athlete look bad even if they are right. The thread is a perfect example as I still have no opinion on NC State but I will never be a fan of Engles based on his words.

We all have the right to feel like life didn’t go the right way. A lot of people might say they didn’t think their teacher or boss wasn’t the greatest, why is this any different

The right wrote:

Lost respect wrote:

I've never been to Raleigh and never met Engles.

I am disappointed in any athlete that throws stones. It makes the athlete look bad even if they are right. The thread is a perfect example as I still have no opinion on NC State but I will never be a fan of Engles based on his words.

We all have the right to feel like life didn’t go the right way. A lot of people might say they didn’t think their teacher or boss wasn’t the greatest, why is this any different

People with class don't go public with their gripes. Same reason many soured on Des Linden with how she exited Hansons.

Keeping the mouth closed and taking the high road is ALWAYS a better route. Engles is not as bad as Linden but sounds petty.

Are HS studs actually better off being a big fish in a small pond - as in going to a good, but not great program? Invest more in keeping them healthy and consistent by removing the need to “chase” the top guys - while still having people good enough to work out with.

Classless Charley wrote:

Keeping the mouth closed and taking the high road is ALWAYS a better route. Engles is not as bad as Linden but sounds petty.

Or him telling his story gives high school recruits one more data point when it comes time to choose a school. If no one ever talked about their negative experiences then crap programs would get a pass. Not saying NC State is a crap program.

The fact is that most D1 programs grind up and spit out their distance and middle distance recruits like they're going out of style, and only a few athletes remain healthy and improve consistently over their four or five years in college. Part of this is on the coaches for jumping them up in intensity and mileage way too fast; part of it is on the athletes for not getting consistent sleep, for competing with each other constantly in workouts and easy runs alike, and for drinking too much. Whenever a great talent like Engels or Webb or Verzbicas comes along and doesn't prosper before moving elsewhere, there is going to be some recrimination because it becomes obvious that he did not come close to realizing his potential in the program. In this case, it was clearly a bad fit and he found a program that suited him and a lot of others like Domanic in Ole Miss.

Geiger does deserve some credit overall, 172 All-Americans, 12 of 23 ACC Men's XC titles at one point, 17 women's ACC titles in 24 years, Ryan Hill alone would be a high point in most coaches' careers.

https://gopack.com/coaches.aspx?rc=2997&path=track

Looking over the roster now, they have a lot of guys missing time and not a lot of guys who have made the leap to NCAA level competition, the best I saw being 14:10s guys, with one guy running 10k in 29:23 and one guy running 3:44/8:03, but not improving much over time in college at the 1500, starting out at 3:47, going to 3:45 then 3:44.

This is an accurate summary...plus Engels was immature and disrespectful to adults. He had a lot of maturing to do. Glad to see he's getting there.

I ran for Coach Geiger and would do it again in a heartbeat. I improved significantly with running, was held accountable for participating in my improvement and performance, and learned to become a responsible adult. The program should be graded by the following-

1. Team successes

2. Individual successes

3. Post college success - professionally and personally

Overall, Rollie Geiger and NC State have a 40 year track record of success with these three measures.... not perfect but well done overall.

Coach Geiger has graduated literally hundreds of athletes who are grateful and proud to have run for him, still closely connected to their teammates as life long friends, are well accomplished professionally, and using the valuable life skills learned at NC State in their professions and family lives.

#ThanksCoachGeiger, #BoyBecamesAMan, #PackXC4Ever

Care to elaborate on this? How was he a problem for both the team and the coach?

This thread has hit on one of my axes to grind. Collegiate coaching is Darwinian at its core. The formula for success (as it is with too many HS programs as well) is to set an ambitious (and arbitrary) training plan, recruit a ton of kids, and the 7 that don't crack are your varsity XC squad. That is ridiculous and I don't care how many titles are won that way. The truth is, if one of your runners survives the gauntlet to run...what...3:45 for a 1500 doesn't mean they couldn't have run faster with an individualized plan. Nor does it mean that one of those runners who couldn't complete the mountain of training assigned couldn't have run 3:43 if their training had been individualized. By and large, college coaches don't know how to coach, they've never been trained how to coach, but they figure out ways to win and call it coaching. The average head coach was an intercollegiate athlete, went into a GA or assistant position, and then became a head coach. That process is not a bad one, but usually it means that a former runner (1) knows how to train others the way THEY were trained (2) knows how to train runners the way their head coach wants them to be trained (3) maybe they took some coaching development classes through USTFCCCA, but too often those students don't ask legit questions but try to convince the instructor about the merits of their method of training. This is not coaching, it is managing. This does not apply to all coaches, but a lot of them. Take a Chris Fox, would Justin Knight have been as competitive internationally if he trained 80+ miles per week? How many Justin Knights are steam rolled by this Darwinian system? Even the good coaches out there have to work within a system not designed for international success. Every four years, we lose 80% (or more) of our athletes to the "next level": HS to College, College to Post Collegiate. Could an elite runner take more than four years to develop? Love him or hate him, Alberto Salazar mapped a pretty effective progression for Galen Rupp. For all the hate Galen got for losing to Chris Solinsky or Sam Chelanga, who's still competing? HS athletes have to do their due diligence in choosing a collegiate program. go with the coach that knows how to develop YOU, not just the one where you think you can win because you are just as likely to be a casualty of this athletic Darwinianism as you might be the beneficiary.

CVFC wrote:

Virgin did not run 1:49 in HS, either. Probably he could have found a few more seconds had he aimed his training that direction. As I recall, occasional LR poster malmo has said that Virgin was able to finish a workout with a 38 300m, so he had the speed to get to sub-4. But I'm glad he saved his best-ever race kick for world XC 1980.

7/18/78

AM 5 easy

PM 3 easy, 2400 @ 6:27 (67, 67, 59, 59, 67, 67), 1600 (4:15), 1200 (3:05), 1.5 easy, 6x300 (51, 47, 45, 43, 41, 38.5), 2 easy

That whole figuring out what to do with "free time". What is "free time"?

I cannot even do everything that's needed and wanted to be done because there is not enough time.

It has that "required" I don't dope, I hate dopers, I will beat those cheaters part to the article. How old, dull, and boring.

HOOWIE wrote:

This is a lot of NCAA programs not just NC state.

True. Is there anything illegal about bullying young runners? No. Is it unethical, immoral, and the behavior adults should avoid in dealing with young people? Yes.

Awesome that he went from doing who knows what and being a complete unknown to one of the world's best. Hope he gets a $2 MM contract after medaling in the worlds. Should be on a cereal box!

THIS. Thank you for posting because it's so true. Most coaches are just running a business and rely on winning championships, and hence have no time to guide runners who fall through the cracks and don't develop with their one-size-fits-all plan. I ran at a Power-5 school and saw so many friends who had the talent and ambition quit due to injury, etc. The NCAA system is so overrated and, after being years removed from it, I've witnessed many who either ran poorly in college (or didn't run at all!) excel at the next level. Simply put, the NCAA system doesn't work for everyone, and it seems like many programs (in this case, NC State), let struggling runners fail since they can just replace them with the next recruiting class. It's a business. I'm glad Craig found success and wish him the best.

Not going to quote that whole thing but that is spot on.

This is the most accurate post so far. It’s both the system being results NOW driven and the athletes not taking care of themselves in a high intensity environment. Both sides need to be addressed.

Here’s what college programs and the athletes should be doing more of...

1. Using tools like heart rate monitors and lactate measuring to make sure individual athletes are running correct intensities

2. Having athletes from low mileage high schools cross train more with biking and pool running. Preventing injury and slowly increase their running mileage to match those at higher mileage.

3. Encouraging athletes to room with other athletes and set a consistent and adequate sleep schedule.

4. Educating athletes on the negative impact of high alcohol consumption and the need for a nutritious diet

The thing is you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. The programs should be leading the athletes in these things but it’s on the athletes to follow through.