Jenny Simpson breaks 4:00, finishes just SEVENTH in Rabat DL. 1st American to go sub-4 10 times.

No, you are wrong. Dibaba has contributed to the last four national records and to Muir and Hassan PBs.

Jo72 wrote:

That's nonsense. All of them ran fast without Dibaba. Muir ran 3:55 with a negative split (after 2:09 or so for the first 800m), running at the front in the much faster last two laps. Hassan ran several 3:56 without Dibaba in the race. Tsegay ran 3:57 last year going with the rabbits that were for everyone and keeping the lead in the second half.

There were plenty of good and fast 1500m and mile races without Dibaba in the last 4 years. The situation is not at all comparable to Semenya.

I don't deny that Dibaba kept the race in Rabat fast after the pacers dropped out.

Dibaba wasn't even in the race in Paris when Muir ran 3:55.

Hassan ran her old PB at Dibaba's WR but in 2017 she ran twice within 0.2 sec. of that PB in races without Dibaba.

The claim that Dibaba was needed for fast races in a similar way to Semenya in the 800m is silly.

Most of the work would be done by the rabbits until 800-900m and then often someone else would keep the pace sufficiently high.

Although I agree there is a lot of evidence that Dibaba doped, your stats are misleading. Dibaba ran 3:55 indoors during the 2014 season... so, she didn’t go from 4:01 to 3:50 in one year. Also, it’s well known that Genzebe is more of time trialer rather than a great racer. She is quite poor in race tactics and is not as mentally strong as other athletes, which means the bad performances in championships should not really count against her. Even during the year she ran 3:50/14:15, she got a mere bronze in the W.C. 5000m final because she mentally fell apart.

YMMV wrote:

mooonshot wrote:

She races her heart out. An absolute beast. She doesn't hide in the pack like Simpson hoping that others make mistakes. She takes races by the throats and crushes them. No mercy.

[quote]skyboy wrote:

Being a cutthroat competitor and doping are not mutually exclusive you know. High on whatever chemicals she is on, she attacks without fear, riding the pharmaceutical wave. In fact it sounds like she is a female version of Lance, to be honest. I do like prefer form compared to Hassan, though, who runs like a wretchedly-posessed spasmodic wraith for the final 200.

Muir strikes me as someone who has the "Heart of a Beast" yet could possibly be clean. No guarantee there either, unfortunately.

I couldn't care less about these people doping since the bodies responsible for catching them are inept or corrupt. It's like they don't want them to get caught....and we don't demand more. If we truly cared, we would watch, we wouldn't support it. We wouldn't buy the gear.

i just wanna see really fast times and competitive races and if people keel over from too much EPO in their system then that's part of the game.

Everyone on this board speculates about what Jim Ryun would have run against El G or whatever anyway. No one will ever agree on who is the GOAT or best racer or best doper or fastest natural talent or most clean......so who cares?! Just fast, competitive racing is the most interesting part about the sport. Today, you can't watch track or marathons and assume anyone is clean anyway. I know people think the white dudes like Ben True and Johnny Gregorek or the Norwegians are clean because they're white and hard workers, but that's rubbish logic. So subjective.

When Ben Johnson ran that record and Lance Armstrong floated up the mountains and even that Floyd Landis comeback day on the Tour, people were amazed and excited. It's still exciting to watch that stuff despite knowing it was inauthentic.

Other things that were incredibly exciting when I watched them that would not be diminished if a doping conviction came out:

Rupp winning Silver in the 10,000m

Rudisha running the WR in the finals

Solinsky breaking 27:00 at Stanford

Bolt running 9.58 or 19.19

Kipchoge running 2:01:39

WVN almost breaking 43 in the 400m

It's exciting while you're watching and that doesn't get taken away..... and you aren't a fool for enjoying it while it happens.

Bring on the sub 3:50 I say. Bring on the 3:25 1500m and so it goes...

mooonshot wrote:

Same song, and YOU are complicit in pushing the racist and shallow narrative of every African being dirty yet white girls are clean. You are also complicit in the false narrative that al athletes are guilty until proven innocent.

Once again, you are ignorant to the sport. Simpson and her meds, altitude, etc., are just as gray area as anyone else.

Racist? Are you insane? My father is Sudanese!!! This has now become humorous. Your weakness in lack of valid argument has now led you to become the typical man out of any viable points of support; and when you haven't any retort, your default is to call someone "racist". It's almost like a predictable algorithm that is being followed.

Let me ask you: was Simpson's coach caught with preloaded epo syringes and TWO types of anabolic steroids at Simpson's training camp? Is Wetmore on the run from Interpol, perchance? Did Simpson have trouble even running 1k at her 1500m pace after a drug bust? Are you insinuating now that training at altitude is on the same level of taking drugs in Sabadell for enhanced performance? Care to revise your statements? I'm happy to go back and forth all day on this, as are quite a few others here.

You are assuming everyone on this board thinks rationally and objectively.

719er wrote:

JS strikes me as flaky and self-righteous, dopers or not that she has to compete with. Her obvious mission to stamp out un-proven doping by going out of her way to celebrate their defeat comes across poorly. She won't win the war.

She won't win the war

You won't fight the battle.

You should have covfefe together

feels bad man wrote:

vvvvv wrote:

Your posts should be deleted because they are incoherent.

Yeah. The mods were probably trying to do him a favor and saving him from embarrassment.

Here is an example of LR admins hypocrisy- deleting replies that don’t fit their agenda, yet to many already quoted it before it was deleted.

mooonshot wrote:

Same song, and YOU are complicit in pushing the racist and shallow narrative of every African being dirty yet white girls are clean. You are also complicit in the false narrative that al athletes are guilty until proven innocent.

Once again, you are ignorant to the sport. Simpson and her meds, altitude, etc., are just as gray area as anyone else.

Here's the all-time top twenty-four list. You draw your own conclusions. Dibaba has run five seconds faster than anyone who is/was possibly clean.

1 3:50.07 Genzebe Dibaba ETH 08.02.91 1 Monaco 17.07.2015

2 3:50.46 Qu Yunxia CHN 25.12.72 1 Beijing 11.09.1993

3 3:50.98 Jiang Bo CHN 13.03.77 1 Shanghai 18.10.1997

4 3:51.34 Lang Yinglai CHN 22.08.79 2 Shanghai 18.10.1997

5 3:51.92 Wang Junxia CHN 09.01.73 2 Beijing 11.09.1993

6 3:52.47 Tatyana Kazankina RUS 17.12.51 1 Zürich 13.08.1980

7 3:53.91 Yin Lili CHN 11.11.79 3 Shanghai 18.10.1997

8 3:53.96 Paula Ivan ROU 20.07.63 1 Seoul 01.10.1988

9 3:53.97 Lan Lixin CHN 14.02.79 4 Shanghai 18.10.1997

10 3:54.11 Genzebe Dibaba ETH 08.02.91 1 Barcelona 08.07.2015

11 3:54.23 Olga Dvirna RUS 11.02.53 1r1 Kiev 27.07.1982

12 3:54.52 Zhang Ling CHN 13.04.80 5 Shanghai 18.10.1997

13 3:55.0 Tatyana Kazankina RUS 17.12.51 1 Moskva 06.07.1980

14 3:55.01 Lan Lixin CHN 14.02.79 1h2 Shanghai 17.10.1997

15 3:55.07 Dong Yanmei CHN 16.02.77 6 Shanghai 18.10.1997

16 3:55.22 Laura Muir GBR 05.09.93 1 Saint-Denis 27.08.2016

17 3:55.30 Hassiba Boulmerka ALG 10.07.68 1 Barcelona 08.08.1992

18 3:55.33 Süreyya Ayhan-Kop TUR 06.09.78 1 Bruxelles 05.09.2003

19 3:55.38 Qu Yunxia CHN 25.12.72 2h2 Shanghai 17.10.1997

20 3:55.47 Zhang Ling CHN 13.04.80 3h2 Shanghai 17.10.1997

20 3:55.47 Genzebe Dibaba ETH 08.02.91 1 Rabat 16.06.2019

22 3:55.60 Süreyya Ayhan-Kop TUR 06.09.78 1 Zürich 15.08.2003

23 3:55.68 Yuliya Chizhenko RUS 30.08.79 1 Saint-Denis 08.07.2006

24 3:55.82 Dong Yanmei CHN 16.02.77 4h2 Shanghai 17.10.1997

Thank you for confirming that Dibaba is basically the GOAT. I don’t give it to her yet because of her Olympic 1500m Silver, but can you provide her failed test result?

If not, I’ll simply bucket her with Paula Radcliffe and Seb Coe as alleged dopers with no concrete evidence other than Paula’s St. Moritz connections and Athens glowing meltdown and Coe’s toxoplasmosis.

Let's stick to one case at a time ("what about this other case" does nothing to adjudicate this one). Does not this news item (from June 2018) trouble you?

"The news follows police raids in June 2016 on several premises in the Catalonian town of Sabadell where Aden and his athletes were staying. Six doctors from the IAAF, athletics’ world governing body – which had been monitoring Aden for three years – and officials from the Spanish Anti-Doping Agency found different types of the banned drug EPO and 19 syringes preloaded and ready to use."

mooonshot wrote:

Should Simpson return her sub-4:00 1500 since she was dragged to that time BECAUSE OF DIBABA?

Exactly. I thought it was hilarious when Simpson was clapping and celebrating while coming in 7th. That's how absurd this sport has become. She lingered back there in her typical non-threatening position and was totally dependent on everyone in front of her falling apart. Once in a while it works and she collects a medal. But overall it is a scared and pathetic way to race.

Americans are far too accepting of that style because it's been practiced by virtually every top American for 40+ years. At least we occasionally had someone willing to risk the front end, like Johnny Gray. Centrowitz never wins anything if he sits back in that Olympic 1500. Clayton Murphy got flat lucky. I hate to see any American pick up the pieces like that in a major event because it encourages young runners and their coaches to somehow believe that closing style is acceptable.

Anyway, the lost variable in the Rabat race is that Hassan Safan is an absolute idiot in terms of late tactics. It shows up time and again and is the primary reason she runs so well but seldom wins events like that. Her only chance on that final lap was to remain patient and try to surge past Dibaba late. Instead she tried to pass in the middle of the turn. Frontrunners own immense advantage when that stupid ploy is attempted. It showed up time and again at the NCAA Championships. Seemingly fading frontrunners were able to withstand and rebound if the attempt was made too early on the final lap and specifically in the middle of that turn. You can force them wide and never get called for it. Then the leader has a surge of adrenaline once they realize that the rally is faltering and now they've got it made. The margin explodes toward the tape.

You can only attempt a pass at that point if you have a massive class edge over the opponent. That certainly isn't the case with Safan and Dibaba.

Awsi Dooger wrote:

mooonshot wrote:

Should Simpson return her sub-4:00 1500 since she was dragged to that time BECAUSE OF DIBABA?

Exactly. I thought it was hilarious when Simpson was clapping and celebrating while coming in 7th. That's how absurd this sport has become. She lingered back there in her typical non-threatening position and was totally dependent on everyone in front of her falling apart. Once in a while it works and she collects a medal. But overall it is a scared and pathetic way to race.

This. Jenny didn't run bravely in the Olympic final either. She said it herself in the interview...she waited for people to destroy themselves in front of her, and then she passed the carnage to get a medal.

Here is the 2013 WC. I didn't see her sitting back in the pack. In fact, she led almost the entire race.

mooonshot wrote:

Thank you for confirming that Dibaba is basically the GOAT. I don’t give it to her yet because of her Olympic 1500m Silver, but can you provide her failed test result?

If not, I’ll simply bucket her with Paula Radcliffe and Seb Coe as alleged dopers with no concrete evidence other than Paula’s St. Moritz connections and Athens glowing meltdown and Coe’s toxoplasmosis.

I think you completely missed Monty's point, unfortunately. It's likely you'll continue to keep your head in the sand and turn a blind eye. For what reasons, I still haven't grasped.

And where was Dibaba? Sitting in the back, where she finished 7th. Two years later she runs 3:50. Hmmmm... not suspicious at all.

wafer wrote:

wafer wrote:

Here is the 2013 WC. I didn't see her sitting back in the pack. In fact, she led almost the entire race.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgHlFF3Llhc

And where was Dibaba? Sitting in the back, where she finished 7th. Two years later she runs 3:50. Hmmmm... not suspicious at all.

Dibaba finished 8th, but on the positive side she beat the high schooler.

nlkneleknlken wrote:

Awsi Dooger wrote:

Exactly. I thought it was hilarious when Simpson was clapping and celebrating while coming in 7th. That's how absurd this sport has become. She lingered back there in her typical non-threatening position and was totally dependent on everyone in front of her falling apart. Once in a while it works and she collects a medal. But overall it is a scared and pathetic way to race.

This. Jenny didn't run bravely in the Olympic final either. She said it herself in the interview...she waited for people to destroy themselves in front of her, and then she passed the carnage to get a medal.

Best way to beat a bunch of dopers.

Sure. It's so 'rational and objective' to protest a personal bias towards cheating.