Road Racing and Training Thread - Week Ending 5/26/2019

Stonecutter - fascinating on the change in perception between KM and miles. I've noted something similar when people train by power rather than pace - I think the shift works not because training by power is inherently superior, but because people aren't compelled to beat power targets like they are with pace targets.

RRR - what is a "DBAP R3" oh...never mind....figured it out. :)

Statfanatic - interesting to read your report, and how different our experiences were - I enjoyed reading about your strategy. And....sorry I didn't realize your were there, or I would have intro'd myself. [I did cheer for the top 5 guys when you got your stuff, so there's that]

Runner Sam - I'll look into that Newark mile - thanks for the suggestion! I've got a few others marked out - Liberty (Pittsburgh), Harrisburg, Fredericksburg, the USATF Masters Road Mile, and Fifth Avenue Mile.

Coyote Montane - congrats on setting that record! Yet another feather in your masters cap.

RunnerSam- Big and hearty congratulations to you, my friend! Yes, I am enjoying being with Stone again, and am glad he offered the 21-day cycle. It makes things easier on him, and I can just “recycle” the cycle and get good results. Easy and straightforward in all respects. In the last two days, I have been on some scorching hot (and water-less) runs, and am surprised at how good I am feeling...racking up the miles.

Stone Cutter - Thanks, my ego is healed after a good run yesterday with strides, and a long hill workout this morning. Really looking forward to my next few races too.

For Chicago I think a smart goal would be to get under 2:50. My PR is 2:53 from Boston 2011 (the absurdly good weather year), but I did run 2:54 last year at the Maine Marathon, which has some hills. That was off Pfitz 55-70mpw, which was a slight increase in mileage / consistent workouts at the time but now has become the new normal for me. I did positive split that race 1:24/1:30 - because I ended up running the first 10 with a buddy who was much fitter than I and messed up my fueling. I sometimes wonder if 2:45 is reasonable on a flat course - I ran 1:18 half on a windy day last fall - but I'll see how this summer's build up goes.

Question for you track guys and guys/gals that run races at night. How do you do nutrition day of?

Always prefer to run/race in the mornings as I dont like much on my stomach. That 2 mile friday is at 2045 .. So I am thinking up early for a shakeout and a HUGE breakfast .. a very light lunch .. and only liquids after (maybe a smoothie) .

runrincerepeat wrote:

Question for you track guys and guys/gals that run races at night. How do you do nutrition day of?

Always prefer to run/race in the mornings as I dont like much on my stomach. That 2 mile friday is at 2045 .. So I am thinking up early for a shakeout and a HUGE breakfast .. a very light lunch .. and only liquids after (maybe a smoothie) .

I normally eat in the mornings before I run, so when I race in the evenings, I swap meals and have "breakfast" a few hours before the race. Unfortunately, that doesn't translate so well to you, unless you want to fast all day to mirror what you do while sleeping.

I think your plan is a good one. Tomorrow morning, if you run, perhaps have your smoothie before your morning run to make sure it sits well?

Your two big concerns are a) having enough energy for the race and b) having everything digested well. (I know you know that, but sometimes I find it helpful to explicitly list out the end goals when trying to plan something)

I have always liked racing in the evenings, something more frequent in track meets than in road races, and something that is more common in road races in the northeast than in the south.

I have a normal breakfast, then tend to stick with a steady diet of inoffensive foods: pretzels, sourdough bread, bananas. But I definitely do not limit my intake of food until 2 hours before my warm up or about 3 hours before gun time. For me, that is a recipe for blood sugar issues.

Feel bad for not contributing as much as I've wanted to lately. Busy few weeks.

M35

Next race: Grandma's Marathon (June 22). Working my way towards sub 3:05.

50 miles this week. Two work outs:

1. Weds: 11.5 miles, including 3 x 2 miles at Tempo --averaged 6'20. First tempo miles in nearly a month (due to injury).

2. Saturday: 18 miles, including mile 6 at T and miles 8-16 at GMP. Ended up doing the T at 6'48 and a few of the last GMP miles at that same pace (wasn't looking at watch). Don't know what to feel about that.

Ankle seems to be holding up, but I'm always nervous the posterior tib tendonitis will come roaring back...hope it doesn't.

Take care all! Hope to chime in more soon!

Some comments from this week:

SC: Nice way to crush it on your JQ400. I will be doing a 400 m track TT with the Zoom Streak LT4 at some point soon.

GT: Solid Tempo 7 and ladder workout. Regarding your last week’s comment, I would like to get sub-16:30 at some point but will go for the sub-17 first.

RRR: Good luck on the 2 mile race! Nice to see you upping your running mileage.

JQ: Nice office 5K race and congratulations on 2nd overall! Plenty of speed on your quality workouts but nice, slow pace for the easy runs.

dirtroadSC: Nice week of workouts especially with the tempo workout. Good luck on the 5K raec.

Coyote Montane: Congratulations on crushing the age record at Bolder Boulder. Nice race!

Long Way from Here: Nice 5x1000 workout and looking forward to seeing you crush that 5K race for a new PR.

Sub-6: Nice week of recovery/easy pace running. Be careful with your hamstrings.

Allen1959: That is one impressive bike ride. Nice to have found another runner/marathoner to marry.

OR: Nice week of high volume training. It is really hard to maintain target paces for speedwork in hot/humid conditions (although I always try and fail, never seem to learn my lesson) but I am confident running in adverse weather conditions just makes you a stronger runner.

JTA: Nice slow buildup and congratulations on getting the FR245. I have a 935 and am thinking about getting a 945. I have been married 11 years (we’ve been through some ups and downs including issues with my “obsession” with running but things are going well for now)

RGM: Another solid buildup week.

Jewbacca: Wishing you a speedy recovery for your posterior tibial and hamstring issues. I probably should start doing some exercises to prevent another pulled hamstring injury.

Pewow: Congratulations on your engagement!

Pappy: Welcome back to the thread.. Hope to see you up and running again sometime soon.

RunnerSam: Nice week of training with your fiancee.

Cocoon: Solid week of training. Which marathon will you be going for sub-3 in?

MikeG83: Congratulations on the trail 10K win. Sounds like a tough 5K but I am sure you will rebound for the JPM Corporate challenge. Wish we had this race in LA.

Urban Diesel: Solid mileage for the week despite all of the travelling you had to do.

TDR: Nice Mile TT. Looking strong for your 1500 race.

Guy Broman: Congratulations on the sub-17 5K race Solid effort!

Darkwave: Still a solid effort on the mile race and great overall week of training especially with the swim, strength training, yoga, and pool-running cross training. For me, my HR tends to spike up right when I start running before coming down some and settling down. I still use it as a measure of my effort although I am considering also using power to monitor my effort as I have a Stryd powermeter footpod that I only use for distance tracking.

BHViking: Good luck in your half marathon this weekend. What is an alactic sprint?

Hereford: Welcome back to the thread. What kind of times do you need to run to compete for M50-54 podium at Boston by the way?

LancRunner: Great job with the 64 seconds on the 400 TT.

Statfanatic: Nice mile race.. 4:15 is seriously fast on a hilly road mile course. Have you ever broken 4 in the mile?

LebanonHills: Welcome back to the thread. Solid 2 workouts there.

LebanonHills wrote:

Next race: Grandma's Marathon (June 22). Working my way towards sub 3:05.

1. Weds: 11.5 miles, including 3 x 2 miles at Tempo --averaged 6'20. First tempo miles in nearly a month (due to injury).

2. Saturday: 18 miles, including mile 6 at T and miles 8-16 at GMP. Ended up doing the T at 6'48 and a few of the last GMP miles at that same pace (wasn't looking at watch). Don't know what to feel about that.

I'm no expert but if your breathing felt fine and your legs were singing (not screaming) during those T and M sessions by feel, then I suspect you are in for a very good race at Grandma's next month.

Out of curiosity, is your race strategy to run even splits at 7:03 or run by what feels right?

Bruin1996 wrote:

Some comments from this week:

BHViking: Good luck in your half marathon this weekend. What is an alactic sprint?

Thanks! Alactic sprints are something I believe I picked up from a Lydiard quote somewhere and was mentioned in Keith Livingstone's "Healthy Intelligent Training". When describing base training, a primary objective was to avoid excessive lactate buildup. The alactic sprint was referred to as a fast sprint that was short enough to prevent flooding of lactate acid. If I remember right there would be a lot of easy jogging in between them. So basically, they are strides. Mentally, I think I subconsciously kept telling myself "alactic sprint" to remind myself it was a sprint in the absence of lots and lots of lactate.

I think the thought was that anaerobic work eats away at your aerobic base.. so on base periods want to keep the speed stuff short and w lots of recovery

BHViking: I started grandmas training with no real goal. My thought was it was a “stepping stone” marathon I could use to eventually work my way to sub 3’05, being the relative novice I am. Now I have been hitting the paces and On the workouts last week breathing and everything seemed okay (like I could do another set if required, though it’d be tough). Thing is though I lost out on about 3 weeks running training the past month so that’s kind of dampened the temptation to set a goal and solidied my original thought of just running by feel and seeing how it goes.

Coincidentally had a not so great work out today! Ran 11 miles in the heat and high sun. Boy that got to me. Had to bag the tempo stuff and just run easy. Felt like I was on mile 23 of a marathon at the finish.

Bruin1996 wrote:

Cocoon: Solid week of training. Which marathon will you be going for sub-3 in?

I will target CIM for sub-3. I am tagging along to the June 30 marathon with a couple of training partners. Sub 3 doesn't look viable there. I seem to have lost a lot of shape post Boston :).

Oh ok, I get that. I'm glad to hear that you are going by feel. When I first started running a few years ago I would crash and burn every single race trying to chase some number that "Lap Pace" said on my watch. Once I got away from that, things improved well beyond the numbers that I was even previously chasing (funny how that works). Although, Mile 23 never FELT like it got easier, there was far much less of a slow down.

Losing out on 3 weeks training is not the end of the world by any stretch of the imagination. Often times people will run great races after a non-optimal training cycle, sometimes even their best.

Can't wait to hear how Grandma's goes!

runrincerepeat wrote:

I think the thought was that anaerobic work eats away at your aerobic base.. so on base periods want to keep the speed stuff short and w lots of recovery

Hi RRR,

Yes, this exactly the philosophy. Granted, I won't pretend to understand the reason why. It just seems like there are a lot of people who seem to get more and more aerobically fit while absolutely putting the hammer down a few times a week. Others avoid it entirely. Personally, I am avoiding it entirely out of pure faith. I have no idea if the "best" way of improving aerobic base is to completely avoid going over LT or not.

My summer off RRR base plan is gonna have a steady dose of threshold work in the form of cruise intervals ... and short faster reps in the form of 200, strides and hill reps. shall see what happens? I think its gonna equal PR mode come fall when I add in some of the longer Intervals

Through page 2.

Stone - Not a terrible 'scratch' to be starting from. Solid TT as well!

GT - Good bounce back week and a really solid 7 mile tempo. I think I heard someone around here say it's a perfect half predictor a while ago.

RRR - Another good volume week. Should be good for a solid 2 miler.

JQ - Really solid week with a few good workouts.

CM - Great work at Bolder Boulder! That's a great race!

LWFH - Really solid consistent training you've been putting in. That Friday workout especially looks really good.

Sub 6:00 - Good week of volume. Take care of those hammies!

OR - Solid week overall. Tough conditions towards the end so I wouldn't worry about one workout too much. I would've stopped at the store again after the race but my wife was hungry so we went for lunch. And I like keeping a low profile anyway.

Smoove - I'm holding you to that 10k showdown in December. In all seriousness good to see you progressing along well.

DW - Solid race Monday and a good overall week. The mile is a finicky race, especially when you throw some hills etc. in there. Don't worry about not saying hi. I do prefer keeping a low profile.

Pew- +1 for marriage. It's great and I wouldn't change it for the world.

Looks like everyone is still progressing well. Drive by post

Still injured, cannot run more than a few minutes. Pool running in the mean time. Trying not to get fat.

What a sh!t year.

Not fully caught up but here are the comments I've been able to put together... Stone: Nice speed on that 400. Look forward to following your starting-from-scratch progress. Switching over to kms seems like a smart way of getting a mental reset with a different frame of reference. GT: The short hill repeats sound good, the dirt roads even better. RRR: Looking forward to that 2 mile. jotquill: Great job in that 5k. Sounds like fun racing conditions! dirtroad: Deerflies are vicious. In my experience wearing a hat helps somewhat. Coyote: Congrats on Bolder Boulder – terrific performance in one of the real classics. Longway: Are you running the track workouts at a higher level of intensity or do you think it’s the track itself that’s putting a little more of a hurting on your legs? (Running the turns might be part of it.) Sub 6: Agree with Allen, that’s a fun-looking schedule. Allen: Nice work on the long ride. The double century should be an experience. And nice work on the TT, too. How did the ten milers treat you? OR: Good work in the heat. Tough early on when you’re not really acclimated, but that’s how you get acclimated, I guess. JtA: Solid week, and smart to keep it solid at 40 rather than going for 50 (yet). And thanks for the PF tip – I remembered you mentioning that before, and it’s a good suggestion. And congrats to you and your wife on the anniversary, too! That’s a pretty funny story about the reception. RGM: Chicago in the fall – cool! jewbacca: Good work sticking with it on the rehab front. Hang in there and it will come around eventually. RunnerSam: Plateaus happen. Progress will come. cocoon: You seem to have a really good approach to building strength over time. Nice workout on Wednesday, and that hill climb sounds like fun in a painful sort of way. Mike: I wouldn’t sweat the 5k result too much. First 5k in a while, on a hot day early in the spring, not surprising you got a little cooked in the last mile. The next one will likely be faster. Urban Diesel: Congratulations to your daughter, and nice work getting in the running with all that travel. TDR: Solid week and a speedy time trial. Sub 5 coming up… Guy: Congratulations on the 5k PR! Really strong run there. The barbecue will be/has been well earned. darkwave: Curious how much mile-specific training you had done, and how recently you had raced one. The mile is pretty specific in its demands, and racing one on the roads, particularly with some up and down, just makes it harder to get the right balance of precision and aggression.

Pappy wrote:

49m ex-runner.

I haven't done much in weeks/months. I even stopped following the thread mostly. From time to time I still do look. Seems like everyone is kicking a$$ as usual.

Allen, my knees still hurt. Mostly because I'm too lazy or not consistent enough to do what needs to be done.

Darkwave, great perspective on racing guys. Personally, I'd never let a woman beat me because she's a female. If one beats me it is because she is better.

Smoove, I got a kick out of your description last week on p2. That is why I was doing intervals last year. Maybe if I ever get back at it I'll try some type of Igoli type training until I can run longer more naturally.

Pappy: "Like Igloi but slow" basically describes what I've been doing lately. Started out with 90 steps running/90 steps walking, now at 180 steps running/90 steps walking, which works out to something like 1:00 on/1:00 off. Planning to gradually extend the running from there. Eventually I'll drop the walking, but I'm not going to rush it. (That may change when the bugs get bad, though.)

I think I've mentioned this before, but the run/walk thing is something that's worked well for me when coming back from injury in the past. Over the past six months, it seems like the injury bug has been getting me pretty good (achilles, calf, PF, hip, calf again, PF again...), and while I am not especially quick on the uptake, it seems evident that I need to do something different from what I was doing. Part of that "something different" should probably involve doing more non-running stuff, but the fact is that I have never been very good about doing that on a regular basis. And I don't want to get away from running too much if I can help it. So, I'm going with the run/walk for now, and trying to incorporate the non-running elements when I can.

And it does seem to be working pretty well. To start with, nothing really hurts, and the things that are sort of tender seem to be becoming progressively less so. At the same time, I find that I am able to run with a much better stride doing the run/walk. And that's really my focus right now, to run well, mechanically, when I am running, and very gradually build up the ability to sustain that stride. We'll see how it goes, but it seems like a good approach for the time being.