Jim Walmsley's 50 Mile American record may not count?

wejo · 2019-05-05T21:03:02-04:00

I just got an email from someone in the ultra community (excerpts below) who wants to remain anonymous who contends there are some concerns about Walmsley getting the 50 mile world best and 50 mile American record because what he competed in may not have been "a bona fied scratch running competition." And since I often use Steeltown Runner as an ultra expert I will say the email was not from him just so people don't assume it is him. I have no idea what "bona fide scratch running competition" means and the USATF rules don't seem to define it. But the rules say such events must be open to "two or more clubs or other organizations." I have the email excerpted below but the concern seems to be this event wasn't open to non HOKA athletes. Here is the relevant part of the email [quote] I've been in correspondence with the record keeping people at USATF. They have expressed some concerns, including whether this was a "bona fide scratch running competition". Was the event made open for others to enter, or was it a closed "one club" (Hoka) event? I never saw an online entry process or who the entries were. Were the athletes who participated actual entries if there was never an entry process? Was it advertised as a 50 Mile and 100K race, or just a 100K race? As taken from the USATF Competition rules on page 146: http://www.usatf.org/usatf/files/da/daf2d12d-b51c-475c-9b06-4a6b41d81071.pdf "Credit for Records: (a) No record shall be acceptable unless it is made in a bona fide scratch running competition, or a bona fide handicap or scratch competition in a field event, open to two or more clubs, schools, colleges, or other organizations, which has been fixed and advertised before the day of competition, and which is included in the printed program together with the names of the entrants for the events." I know you guys are being paid by Hoka. I hope you will take great care in how this is promoted and treated at the moment, as it's not official yet. I also wish to remain private on this issue. Thank you for all you do and doing your part to uphold the integrity of the sport! [/quote] My thinking. 1) I'll reach out to the people at HOKA and see what they say. But their intention 100% was for this to be record eligible as they a) got it certified b) did not have illegal pacemaking and c) Jim made sure he finished the 100k so he would get the 50 mile record. In terms of "integrity of the sport" I care about the run being by a clean athlete on a legit course. 2) At the press conference they were asked about there not being any non HOKA athletes in the event. I can maybe see if I have it in my video of this later, but they said there are different type of events, and this was an invitational event. It wasn't an exhibition. Made sense to me. I removed a portion of the email above where there was also concern whether it had an "open event for entries" and other athletes being given the "opportunity to compete. " Those aren't requirements for records however. There are invitational races all the time like the Diamond Leauge. 3) As to the requirement that it be open to "two or more clubs", Walmsley is in AZ and runs with the Coconino Cowboys. Reagan lives in Savannah, Georgia, Kawauchi lives in Japan. These guys have no connection to one another except they for this race were sponsored by HOKA. I don't think Kawauchi was sponsored by them in the past, but can check on that. But they aren't in the same club in how I view the term "club". They have the same sponsor. So technically reading the rules I think the record should count. What do you all think? (If someone were to break say a high school record at one of the events were everyone is forced to race in a New Balance singlet or Nike singlet it shouldn't count?) Sponsor does not equal club. 4) Now getting away from the official record requirement. I could care less if the race was open to people from different sponsors in terms of whether it's a record or not. This clearly was a race, he ran faster than anyone else on a legit 50 mile course, so he should have the record in my book. Sure ideal world I'd love to see 100 guys from different companies battling it out and Jim breaking the record in something like that instead, but I understand the reasons events like this are held. So if HOKA had let some spare slower runners from other sponsors run the race, it should count then but not under this scenario? Doesn't impact the fact Jim ran faster than anyone for 50 miles on a certified legal course. I could care less if the NOP guys had an invitational race for their club only and beat a record. 5) Also I thought it was stupid Jim had to finish the 100k to get the 50 mile record. I just don't see the point of the rules. Once again, I could care less what the official rules say. It's unlikely to happen in many shorter events but say someone broke the 1500 record in route to a mile and then blew out their calf and tumbled to the track or just passed out in exhaustion, I could care less if they finished the mile. That 1500 time should be the world record or world best in this case (And Jim was careful to point out it is a World best not world record). But looking at the rules the person sent me above I saw this in part c of the rules: [quote]For races longer than the Marathon, an athlete may compete at a distance shorter than the stated race distance but longer than the Marathon distance. The athlete shall be eligible for records of any standard distance that is completed, even if the stated race distance is not completed. Similarly, a race director may offer several ultramarathon options within the same race with each being considered a bona fide scratch competition.[/quote] So are the USATF rules saying Jim could have called it a day at 50 miles and still gotten the record? (Why is the rule in there that someone can't get a record at a shorter distance without finishing? If someone breaks at 20k WR in a half marathon it should count.) and unrelated to the records we had written that Jim ran 50 miles faster than any human being because he beat the 50 mile world best by Fordyce of 4:50:51 and he also beat the time by Fordyce of 4:50:21 on the point to point London to Brighton course (and I wonder if Jim was trying to beat that record as well as he was kicking it in at end and only got it by 13 seconds). However, the emailer above also mentioned Comrades in a portion of the email I didn't cite. Now that I think about it I bet someone has run faster for 50 miles on the Comrades down course so we probably should correct the article. I just went and looked and the Comrades down record if an even pace were held would very close to Jim's time. Something along the lines of 4:49 and a few seconds. So I think it's fair to say the down record holder ran faster for 50 miles but maybe not if say there was a huge downhill section the last 5 miles. Anyone know for sure? And finally as for LRC taking "great care in how this is promoted and treated at the moment, as it's not official yet" I have no problem starting this thread. But if 1 year from now or 6 months ago it's not ratified as a record would HOKA really care that much? They'd have gotten all the publicity out of it that they wanted and they'd probably get more from the "controversy". Thoughts? [i]Full disclosure HOKA Is paying us to lead a discussion on What are the Greatest Ultras in the World? and did pay for me to attend the event[/i]

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7 years ago 05/08/2019 2:08am EDT

re: Irunfurther

Irunfurther wrote:
wejo wrote:
I’m too lazy to google right now . Who is she and Meghan hicks?
Meghan Hicks is the co founder of irunfar.com a website for snobby trail runners with a very censored forum.
You didn't miss much if you are not aware of that website.

Irunfar.com is one of the most popular websites dedicated to trail and ultra running. Nothing snobby about it, at least no more snobby than letsrun is re: road&track vs. ultra, quite on the contrary. They publish articles and news about different aspects of trail and ultra running culture, training, injuries, gear, etc. They also do extensive coverage of the most popular races, with very thorough previews and race recaps, pre- and post-race interviews with the main contenders and top finishers, provide live updates of races via Twitter, and publish a summary of weekly race results and commentary each monday.

The forum (aka, the comments section) isn't censored at all, you just don't get to post racist stuff or insult people. Shocking, I know.

Megan Hicks is the Managing Editor. She's also an accomplished trail and ultra runner: she's won the Marathon des Sables, holds the women's fkt at Nolan's 14, and has completed the Bob Graham Round. Apparently, some of Walmsley's sycophants can't forgive she called him out on his boasting and bragging before Western States, even if she's always praised him as an ultra runner.

7 years ago 05/09/2019 8:16pm EDT

re: wejo

WOW!!!!

It's never easy. Forget the IAAF. Closed competition, open competition, club competition, blah blah blah blah blah.................. The dude ran 50 miles FASTER than any other human being on the planet. Legit course, legit timing and legit distance. Whether its a world record (IAAF) or a world best it doesn't freakin' matter. I hope he doesn't get stiffed on any bonus cash from whatever sponsor, that would be disgraceful!!!

Congrats Jim!!!!! Well Done!!!!

FYI-

I'm not an Ultra Runner, just a retired track, x-c, and road racer who can appreciate someone's amazing display of mental and physical endurance.

Cheers!

7 years ago 05/09/2019 8:43pm EDT

re: Mizuno fanboy

LRC basically supported a Breaking Two event over an ultra distance.

Like the rules or not, it is the way USATF operates.

Get your ducks in a row and do your diligence. It could have been a record.

You may hate the rules.

But I LOVE the irony here.

7 years ago 05/10/2019 5:46am EDT

re: sconehead

sconehead wrote:
Meghan Hicks runs the irunfar.com, which is probably the leading website for ultrarunning in US.

THIS must be the biggest joke ever since Dean Karnazes invented ultrarunning.

7 years ago 05/10/2019 6:21am EDT

re: Mizuno fanboy

Mizuno fanboy wrote:
Irunfurther wrote:
Meghan Hicks is the co founder of irunfar.com a website for snobby trail runners with a very censored forum.
You didn't miss much if you are not aware of that website.
Irunfar.com is one of the most popular websites dedicated to trail and ultra running. Nothing snobby about it, at least no more snobby than letsrun is re: road&track vs. ultra, quite on the contrary. They publish articles and news about different aspects of trail and ultra running culture, training, injuries, gear, etc. They also do extensive coverage of the most popular races, with very thorough previews and race recaps, pre- and post-race interviews with the main contenders and top finishers, provide live updates of races via Twitter, and publish a summary of weekly race results and commentary each monday.
The forum (aka, the comments section) isn't censored at all, you just don't get to post racist stuff or insult people. Shocking, I know.
Megan Hicks is the Managing Editor. She's also an accomplished trail and ultra runner: she's won the Marathon des Sables, holds the women's fkt at Nolan's 14, and has completed the Bob Graham Round. Apparently, some of Walmsley's sycophants can't forgive she called him out on his boasting and bragging before Western States, even if she's always praised him as an ultra runner.

Thanks Meagan !!!!

7 years ago 05/10/2019 6:36am EDT

re: wejo

7 years ago 05/10/2019 8:49pm EDT

re: sillyman

Hmm,

Hoka LRC silence....

Telling.

7 years ago 05/10/2019 9:59pm EDT

re: Forest Gump here

Forest Gump here wrote:
Comrades is a very contested race. The 50 mile distance is not. That is the main reason why this record was so old. Now it can sit there for another 50 years.
Nobody cares really, it's not a recognized distance.

One of the reasons Bruce Fordyce is so excited about it is that thousands of Americans just realised who he is now, Comrades getting more interest etc. Bruce is actively doing his training diary subscription blog, which is going to be a best seller book.

I am happy for him, for a man of his status, had he left SA ages ago, he would have been rightfully world famous and raking in the $$

7 years ago 05/10/2019 10:02pm EDT

re: wejo

wejo wrote:
And the person who originally wrote me questioning the possibility of this record counting wrote me again last night right as I started this thread. They wrote,
We were corresponding with USATF people before the race. They hadn't heard from anyone from this event until Thurs. evening when they received the certification (in 3 parts). There was no consultation beforehand to make sure they were following competition rules and doing everything right. The course certification was not done by an IAAF grade certifier, which is a requirement for the 100K World Record. Was it USATF sanctioned too? Watching the feed, they didn't appear to have backup hand timers at the 50 mile split. I've seen people asking about unfair assistance from the lead media truck, as he apparently had his friend(s) encouraging him during the race.

This is the killer....no course measurement certification no record, doesn't matter who runs it and how much he breaks it by.

Yes, its a pedantic process, somehow making IAAF or USATF money too, but sorry it has to be done.

Stick to platform shoes Hoka

7 years ago 05/10/2019 10:43pm EDT

re: I Am Sam

I doubt the event was IAU labeled too, another requirement. You can't get the label unless it was measured by an IAAF measurer. At least two strikes on this event.

7 years ago 05/10/2019 11:52pm EDT

re: bad event planning

Total silence by the letsrun founders and mods?

Where are the bro jays on this?

So quiet!!!

USATF measured course? Certified?

Sanctioned? Publicly announced prior to the race allowing anyone to enter? Timing system auditable?

Eligible for anything??

Do you feel foolish?

You really should.

And you should respond.

7 years ago 05/10/2019 11:54pm EDT

re: Its egun

Its egun wrote:
Total silence by the letsrun founders and mods?
Where are the bro jays on this?
So quiet!!!
USATF measured course? Certified?
Sanctioned? Publicly announced prior to the race allowing anyone to enter? Timing system auditable?
Eligible for anything??
Do you feel foolish?
You really should.
And you should respond.

Yes YOU SHOULD RESPOND. They wont though. Thier equal to the regressive left. Only thier way is right....

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Jim Walmsley's 50 Mile American record may not count?

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