not my real name wrote:
Spot on wrote:
+1
+2.
This sums up this entire thread.
Correct, so it is very likely Kipchoge is doping as he is checking by far the most important box.
not my real name wrote:
Spot on wrote:
+1
+2.
This sums up this entire thread.
Correct, so it is very likely Kipchoge is doping as he is checking by far the most important box.
Great little film - thank you for posting it.
"Truth is, Kipchoge makes me believe. Lots of guys claim integrity and that they don't dope. Kipchoge eminates it. His entire lifestyle of one simplicity, compassion, and integrity. Every action he takes that we know or hear about emphasizes that. Outside of being fast, every other snippet of Kipchoge points to genuine integrity. No rumors or whispers. No bad behavior. No one with any negative story. Where there is smoke, there is usually fire.
Consider guys who are believed protected like Lance, Mo, Bolt, etc. Tons of smoke around all of those. One already went up in flames. Character flaws, anger, risk taking lifestyles, reported missed tests, sketchy associations with coaches, allegations and rumor.
With Kipchoge....zero smoke. Zero rumors. Zero whispering. At the end of the day it comes down to what do you believe. Eluid, simply put, makes me believe. If it's possible to be clean and dominant, it's Kipchoge that could be that athlete."
That is very nicely put, LM.
What a difference between Farah's behaviour in the last week and Kipchoge's.
AndyC wrote:
Tons of smoke around all of those.
Yes - but it looks like his coach officially joined the increasing list of drug cheat coaches. I call that smoke:
https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/04/kenyan-5000m-runner-cyrus-rutto-suspended-for-abp-violation-what-does-it-mean-for-the-sport-and-for-his-coach-patrick-sang/"Kenyan 5000m Runner Cyrus Rutto Suspended For ABP Violation — What Does It Mean For the Sport, and For His Coach Patrick Sang?"
Kipchoge is also from one of only four countries on the IAAF doping watch list. And there is that from July last year:
https://antidopingworld.wordpress.com/2018/07/28/kenya-on-iaafs-most-at-risk-of-doping-list/"Kenya?? has been ranked the top most country likely to dope according to the IAAF. "
Last but not least, if you believe he is clean: what kind of insane times could he run if doping?
Secret to Kipchoge's success here:
well if you ask wrote:
He had a great track career and is a great responder to EPO. He is one of the protected class in running so he won't be busted. Kiptum was just a diversion so people think there actually is any semblance of doping control.
Bingo
It is because Kipchoge, already one of the best runners of the last decade, figured out the marathon and managed to stay focused and humble. Look at the insane splits in 2009 when Sammy Wanjiru won - 14:08, 14:22, 14:42, ... 1:01:36 half, surging 19th mile - 4:25 and still running 2:05:10. Kebede was only a few second back - 2:05:20, Gharib - 2:05:27. It takes more guts and takes a heavier toll on your final time if you run 4:25 for the 19th mile rather than 25th mile, not to mention the opening 14:08 5k split. If they ran it with a more reasonable and even splits, that day all three of them would have run 2:04 low with Gharib and Kebede being only something like 27:30 10k runners. It is no wonder that Kipchoge, still a sub 27 runner while ho moved to marathon has been running 2:03 - 2:04 all the time.
https://sportsscientists.com/2009/04/london-2009-splits-and-pacing/
LM wrote:
We will never know. That I genuinely believe. We would never have known about Lance, but he had too much desire to still compete, a large a$$hole streak, and a list of people with vendettas. Kipchoge has none of that. He will race, win, and leave. He just doesnt have a personality that makes enemies.
Obviously, he could be doping. He is, however, an athlete of insane talent. 18yr old WC win over El G and Bekele. 12:4x. Etc. The shoes seem to help. Kipchoge doesn't fit the profile of a typical doper. He doesn't disappear, he is consistent, etc. Contrast that to guys like MakDaddy or Kiptum, or Kiptoo, or whoever that disappear for ages with no explanation or bounce between being terrible and amazing.
As with any doping scenario, you just never know. It all comes down to belief. Kipchoge checks only one box that is "indicative of doping": he's fast as hell. Outside of that, zero.
Truth is, Kipchoge makes me believe. Lots of guys claim integrity and that they don't dope. Kipchoge eminates it. His entire lifestyle of one simplicity, compassion, and integrity. Every action he takes that we know or hear about emphasizes that. Outside of being fast, every other snippet of Kipchoge points to genuine integrity. No rumors or whispers. No bad behavior. No one with any negative story. Where there is smoke, there is usually fire.
Consider guys who are believed protected like Lance, Mo, Bolt, etc. Tons of smoke around all of those. One already went up in flames. Character flaws, anger, risk taking lifestyles, reported missed tests, sketchy associations with coaches, allegations and rumor.
With Kipchoge....zero smoke. Zero rumors. Zero whispering. At the end of the day it comes down to what do you believe. Eluid, simply put, makes me believe. If it's possible to be clean and dominant, it's Kipchoge that could be that athlete.
One other thing I know, if Kipchoge were to ever be revealed as dirty I would never believe a top athlete could be clean. I already doubt it, but the fall of Kipchoge would be the final nail in the coffin for the ideal of a clean champion.
Great post. Look, he could be doping but even that wouldn't explain his consistency.
As for whether he is clean or dirty , we got a call from a Kenyan American in the last few years. They wanted us to investigate a runner they thought was dirty in Kenya. We then asked them about Kipchoge to see if they had any info.
They replied along the lines of, "Oh I think he's clean. That's what keeps me in the sport."
When people make fun of Canova for saying EPO doesn't work, I often think of Kipchoge. What Canova means really when he says EPO doesn't work is that it doesn't get you better than perfection. The best don't need it.
Is that true? I don't know but I'm like the Kenyan American - my belief that Kipchoge is clean is huge to me still being a fan.
Oh come on you can see it in his red eyes. He is beating dopers and if is clean that means he would run even more ridiculous times.
rojo wrote:
LM wrote:
We will never know. That I genuinely believe. We would never have known about Lance, but he had too much desire to still compete, a large a$$hole streak, and a list of people with vendettas. Kipchoge has none of that. He will race, win, and leave. He just doesnt have a personality that makes enemies.
Obviously, he could be doping. He is, however, an athlete of insane talent. 18yr old WC win over El G and Bekele. 12:4x. Etc. The shoes seem to help. Kipchoge doesn't fit the profile of a typical doper. He doesn't disappear, he is consistent, etc. Contrast that to guys like MakDaddy or Kiptum, or Kiptoo, or whoever that disappear for ages with no explanation or bounce between being terrible and amazing.
As with any doping scenario, you just never know. It all comes down to belief. Kipchoge checks only one box that is "indicative of doping": he's fast as hell. Outside of that, zero.
Truth is, Kipchoge makes me believe. Lots of guys claim integrity and that they don't dope. Kipchoge eminates it. His entire lifestyle of one simplicity, compassion, and integrity. Every action he takes that we know or hear about emphasizes that. Outside of being fast, every other snippet of Kipchoge points to genuine integrity. No rumors or whispers. No bad behavior. No one with any negative story. Where there is smoke, there is usually fire.
Consider guys who are believed protected like Lance, Mo, Bolt, etc. Tons of smoke around all of those. One already went up in flames. Character flaws, anger, risk taking lifestyles, reported missed tests, sketchy associations with coaches, allegations and rumor.
With Kipchoge....zero smoke. Zero rumors. Zero whispering. At the end of the day it comes down to what do you believe. Eluid, simply put, makes me believe. If it's possible to be clean and dominant, it's Kipchoge that could be that athlete.
One other thing I know, if Kipchoge were to ever be revealed as dirty I would never believe a top athlete could be clean. I already doubt it, but the fall of Kipchoge would be the final nail in the coffin for the ideal of a clean champion.
Great post. Look, he could be doping but even that wouldn't explain his consistency.
As for whether he is clean or dirty , we got a call from a Kenyan American in the last few years. They wanted us to investigate a runner they thought was dirty in Kenya. We then asked them about Kipchoge to see if they had any info.
They replied along the lines of, "Oh I think he's clean. That's what keeps me in the sport."
When people make fun of Canova for saying EPO doesn't work, I often think of Kipchoge. What Canova means really when he says EPO doesn't work is that it doesn't get you better than perfection. The best don't need it.
Is that true? I don't know but I'm like the Kenyan American - my belief that Kipchoge is clean is huge to me still being a fan.
Ben Johnson looked like "perfection" when he destroyed an Olympic final; Lance looked like perfection, too, after his 7th yellow jersey. The baseball player, Jose Canseco, whose autobiography was called "Juiced", said doping makes "an ordinary athlete good, a good athlete outstanding and an outstanding athlete invincible". It isn't hard to see the path to "perfection". I've seen a lot of that kind of "perfection" in the last 50 years and I think I know now how most of it was achieved. And please don't be so naive as to think "nice guys" don't dope.
Armstronglivs wrote:
rojo wrote:
Great post. Look, he could be doping but even that wouldn't explain his consistency.
As for whether he is clean or dirty , we got a call from a Kenyan American in the last few years. They wanted us to investigate a runner they thought was dirty in Kenya. We then asked them about Kipchoge to see if they had any info.
They replied along the lines of, "Oh I think he's clean. That's what keeps me in the sport."
When people make fun of Canova for saying EPO doesn't work, I often think of Kipchoge. What Canova means really when he says EPO doesn't work is that it doesn't get you better than perfection. The best don't need it.
Is that true? I don't know but I'm like the Kenyan American - my belief that Kipchoge is clean is huge to me still being a fan.
Ben Johnson looked like "perfection" when he destroyed an Olympic final; Lance looked like perfection, too, after his 7th yellow jersey. The baseball player, Jose Canseco, whose autobiography was called "Juiced", said doping makes "an ordinary athlete good, a good athlete outstanding and an outstanding athlete invincible". It isn't hard to see the path to "perfection". I've seen a lot of that kind of "perfection" in the last 50 years and I think I know now how most of it was achieved. And please don't be so naive as to think "nice guys" don't dope.
This ^^^^^^^
He prepared his marathon career in a Japanese monstery, or some other place with serene monstaries. He is an ascetic monk who gathers and centers his energies methodically in a balanced way. Every race is a careful ritual and personal homage to the universe, which graces him with victory.
If you watch carefully you'll notice he actually levitates.
Armstronglivs wrote:
Ben Johnson looked like "perfection" when he destroyed an Olympic final; Lance looked like perfection, too, after his 7th yellow jersey. The baseball player, Jose Canseco, whose autobiography was called "Juiced", said doping makes "an ordinary athlete good, a good athlete outstanding and an outstanding athlete invincible". It isn't hard to see the path to "perfection". I've seen a lot of that kind of "perfection" in the last 50 years and I think I know now how most of it was achieved. And please don't be so naive as to think "nice guys" don't dope.
He hasn't tested positive for a PED(s) or been charged with a ABP violation -- so why not just give him the benefit of the doubt? Or do we just paint every super fast runner, Olympic/WC gold medalist, WR holder, as a doper?
There's a plenty of distance runners testing positive or blowing their passports left & right from various nations that deserve ridicule, scorn, disgust -- but does every top performing athlete need this skepticism?
Why are you so incredulous, it seems like, with every top performance in the world of athletics? (you just started posting recently on this forum, at least under that handle?). Do you watch races and think; "Okay...he's doping, he's not, he's microdosing, he's not, he looks clean, but he doesn't"....and so forth? If so, then why even bother to watch?
I have never historically paid much attention to the marathon (I have a middle distance background) but watching the entire London marathon yesterday was amazing. Seeing Kipchoge run is like poetry in motion. And what a soft spoken, articulate person he is when he's being interviewed -- a perfect gentleman. Something refreshing that you don't see a lot with some of the athletes these days.
This is a good story.
The youngsters look up to this guy.
He's an inspiration to many.
Don't throw him in the gutter and cast aspersions on him without solid evidence.
There's plenty of confirmed dopers that you can trash.
Nsndmflof wrote:
The only athlete who dominated an endurance sport at the same level with the same consistency in the modern era... I hate to say it... was Lance Armstrong.
So true
rojo wrote:
Great post. Look, he could be doping but even that wouldn't explain his consistency.
As for whether he is clean or dirty , we got a call from a Kenyan American in the last few years. They wanted us to investigate a runner they thought was dirty in Kenya. We then asked them about Kipchoge to see if they had any info.
They replied along the lines of, "Oh I think he's clean. That's what keeps me in the sport."
When people make fun of Canova for saying EPO doesn't work, I often think of Kipchoge. What Canova means really when he says EPO doesn't work is that it doesn't get you better than perfection. The best don't need it.
Is that true? I don't know but I'm like the Kenyan American - my belief that Kipchoge is clean is huge to me still being a fan.
El Guerrouj was spectacularly consistent
Bad Wigins wrote:
He prepared his marathon career in a Japanese monstery, or some other place with serene monstaries. He is an ascetic monk who gathers and centers his energies methodically in a balanced way. Every race is a careful ritual and personal homage to the universe, which graces him with victory.
If you watch carefully you'll notice he actually levitates.
If I understand the posts correctly, that's the shoes.
Let's be fair about this wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Ben Johnson looked like "perfection" when he destroyed an Olympic final; Lance looked like perfection, too, after his 7th yellow jersey. The baseball player, Jose Canseco, whose autobiography was called "Juiced", said doping makes "an ordinary athlete good, a good athlete outstanding and an outstanding athlete invincible". It isn't hard to see the path to "perfection". I've seen a lot of that kind of "perfection" in the last 50 years and I think I know now how most of it was achieved. And please don't be so naive as to think "nice guys" don't dope.
He hasn't tested positive for a PED(s) or been charged with a ABP violation -- so why not just give him the benefit of the doubt? Or do we just paint every super fast runner, Olympic/WC gold medalist, WR holder, as a doper?
There's a plenty of distance runners testing positive or blowing their passports left & right from various nations that deserve ridicule, scorn, disgust -- but does every top performing athlete need this skepticism?
Why are you so incredulous, it seems like, with every top performance in the world of athletics? (you just started posting recently on this forum, at least under that handle?). Do you watch races and think; "Okay...he's doping, he's not, he's microdosing, he's not, he looks clean, but he doesn't"....and so forth? If so, then why even bother to watch?
I have never historically paid much attention to the marathon (I have a middle distance background) but watching the entire London marathon yesterday was amazing. Seeing Kipchoge run is like poetry in motion. And what a soft spoken, articulate person he is when he's being interviewed -- a perfect gentleman. Something refreshing that you don't see a lot with some of the athletes these days.
This is a good story.
The youngsters look up to this guy.
He's an inspiration to many.
Don't throw him in the gutter and cast aspersions on him without solid evidence.
There's plenty of confirmed dopers that you can trash.
There are hundreds of undetectable doping products that are currently available; the black market in doping extends to billions of Euros - it is a huge industry. Very few dopers are caught. We know that. WADA knows that. Now you might ask yourself, how would a clean athlete in any sport (because it is in all sports) be better (and in Kipchoge's case, way better) than doped athletes at the very top of the sport? At the top, clean still beats doped? Really? Do you think doping is confined to mediocrities and recreational athletes, when elites and professionals have so much more at stake? What is the level of athlete in Kenya ( and I'm not saying that problem is confined to Kenya) that is all-too regularly being busted? They are elites. Over the years, I have seen too many top sportsmen and record-breakers across the board who turned out to be dopers. I accept that, unfortunately, it simply goes hand-in-hand with modern sport. But fans - like you - don't wish to know that.
Armstronglivs wrote:
There are hundreds of undetectable doping products that are currently available; the black market in doping extends to billions of Euros - it is a huge industry. Very few dopers are caught. We know that. WADA knows that. Now you might ask yourself, how would a clean athlete in any sport (because it is in all sports) be better (and in Kipchoge's case, way better) than doped athletes at the very top of the sport? At the top, clean still beats doped? Really? Do you think doping is confined to mediocrities and recreational athletes, when elites and professionals have so much more at stake? What is the level of athlete in Kenya ( and I'm not saying that problem is confined to Kenya) that is all-too regularly being busted? They are elites. Over the years, I have seen too many top sportsmen and record-breakers across the board who turned out to be dopers. I accept that, unfortunately, it simply goes hand-in-hand with modern sport. But fans - like you - don't wish to know that.
Freak genetics are more powerful than drugs. A naturally gifted runner is in a class that your average joe will never achieve, even with drugs. Perhaps Kipchoge is just naturally that much better. I don't think anyone can deny that is possible. Combine that with zero allegations/smoke etc. as others have said and you have real grounds to believe in him until there is a shred of evidence to the contrary.
considerthis wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
There are hundreds of undetectable doping products that are currently available; the black market in doping extends to billions of Euros - it is a huge industry. Very few dopers are caught. We know that. WADA knows that. Now you might ask yourself, how would a clean athlete in any sport (because it is in all sports) be better (and in Kipchoge's case, way better) than doped athletes at the very top of the sport? At the top, clean still beats doped? Really? Do you think doping is confined to mediocrities and recreational athletes, when elites and professionals have so much more at stake? What is the level of athlete in Kenya ( and I'm not saying that problem is confined to Kenya) that is all-too regularly being busted? They are elites. Over the years, I have seen too many top sportsmen and record-breakers across the board who turned out to be dopers. I accept that, unfortunately, it simply goes hand-in-hand with modern sport. But fans - like you - don't wish to know that.
Freak genetics are more powerful than drugs. A naturally gifted runner is in a class that your average joe will never achieve, even with drugs. Perhaps Kipchoge is just naturally that much better. I don't think anyone can deny that is possible. Combine that with zero allegations/smoke etc. as others have said and you have real grounds to believe in him until there is a shred of evidence to the contrary.
So you have two "naturally gifted" runners. One of them dopes. Which of them wins? The reality is that all top athletes are naturally gifted. The differences between them are very small.
Since when are all elites equal?? It's a bell curve and he's as far to the right as it gets.
I guess Newton was just on drugs he wasn't really smarter than everyone else.