@Renato - interesting to note that Hct is not correlated with performance. I've always found that I felt at my best when my Hct was in the range 41-42 but recently I had some blood work done and my Hct was 38.7 which is classed as abnormal even though my running had recently improved. Similarly my RBC and haemoglobin were both low as well, 3.86 and 126.
I'm now a little confused about which blood results correspond to my performance.
Renato Canova wrote:
The same with Shaheen. The first time I saw him in 1998 (he was 16 years old, and was in training in Iten followed by Joseph Ngure, at that time assistant coach of Brother Colm during the training camp organized for juniors in December, together with Cornelius Chirchir), I said "I hope in the future to have the opportunity to coach athletes like these two. With that talent, I see the possibility to run 3'25" (Cornelius) and 7'50" (steeple), and, when really I could coach Stephen Cherono (still junior), I was not happy of his final WR, because I know he could run under 7'50".
Renato,
Shaheen (Cherono) was being coached by Kim Macdonald in 2001, based in Teddington. UK. He ran 3.38 and 13.20 for the Steeplechase (both PRs) that summer. During the break in the European GP circuit for the IAAF World Champs that were in Edmonton, Canada, Cherono returned to Kenya for 4 weeks. At the Brussels Golden League race August 24th, he runs a whopping PR by over 20 seconds and runs 7.58. Is this when you started coaching him? Did your training improve him 20 seconds in 4 weeks?
According to his previous post, Canova started coaching Shaheen in 2002, after Kim McDonald died. (McDonald died 10 November, 2001).
So he already would have run 7:58
Stephen was in training with Daniel Komen in the winter (February and March) 2001. He was practically killed by the quality of Komen, and went in overtraining, after running in 4 meetings in Australia : 3000m in Newcastle (3.02) in 7'46"23 (winner), again 3000m in Sydney (16.02) in 7'46"03 (2nd), steeple in Canberra (18.02) in 8'30"54 (2nd) and again in 8'21"94 in Hobart (11.03, winner).
After that period, Kim McDonald (who was his manager and his coach) put him in several meetings : 18.05 in Doha (3rd in steeple in 8'19"43), 3.06 in Gresham (2nd in steeple in 8'22"98), 9.06 in Stanford (2nd in steeple in 8'25"98), 17.06 in Villeneuve d'Ascq (8th in 2000m in 5'03"06), 2.07 in Zagreb (5th in 1500m in 3'35"47), 9.07 in Nice (8th in steeple in 8'24"58) and 15.07 (winner in 1500m in Lappeeranta in 3'39"18). Too many competitions, no time enough for training.
Since I was the coach of his elder brother Christopher Koskei, who in 1999, after years of continuous decrease in his performances (in 1998 ran styeeple in 8'48"...), and Stephen was not happy about his results of medium level, he asked Christopher to speak with me if I was interested to become his coach.
We met in Iten, and I explained that he never could reach his top level, competing so much and without basic aerobic training (he never ran longer than 40 minutes).
So, I planned for him 4 weeks of training only, with the main goal to increase the Aerobic Power. Stephen started to reduce the track sessions, increasing the length of long run, putting long tests during fartlek (for example, 4 times 6 minutes with 2 min recovery + 4 times 2 minutes with 1 min recovery + 3 final minutes at max speed) and starting to run, once per week, 6 km fast, increasing the speed every time (starting from 2'55" per km, the last was at 2'48").
Stephen ran one competition for testing himself (we didn't have any real training of speed) in 1500m on 19.08 (3'37"27 in Gateshead, winning), and was very motivated for running steeples again in Bruxelles (24.08), when destroyed his PB of about 20 seconds, running under 8' (3rd position in 7'58"66 behind Brahim Boulami beating the WR with 7'55"28 and Reuben Kosgei at his PB of 7'57"29).
His performance surprised me, because I had the idea he could run around 8'07", of sure not under 8', and that performance made me understand the incredible mental strength of Stephen (situation making the difference between a normal great champion and an extra-class athlete).
Stephen ended the season with other 3 competitions of steeple, without more training, winning in Berlin (31.08) with 8'09"59, and after with two races in Australia, both in 3rd position, in Brisbane (5.09 in 8'19"98) and in Melbourne (9.09 in 8'18"85).
At the beginning of November, Kim McDonald died, and Stephen changed management, joining Gianni Demadonna (who was the manager of Christopher Koskei).
Stephen remained with Gianni one year only (2002), going back to Ricky Simms (that continued the management of Kim McDonald) in 2003, because also with Gianni there were too many competitions and not long periods for training (11 races of steeple...).
From 2003, Stephen finally could follow a very precise technical plan, limiting the number of competitions in order to maintain for all the season a high level of shape.
Renato Canova wrote:
Of course there are reasons for fluctuations, different from the assumption of medicines. But a percentage of fluctuation bigger than 10% is very suspicious if the fluctuation is going UP, not if the fluctuation is going DOWN.
You can have, for example, normal values between 44 and 46 of Hct, and suddenly going to 52, in natural way. This is clearly the effect of the assumption of some pharma product.
Instead, if you have normal values between 44 and 46, and your fluctuation at the moment brings the values to 39, of course this is the indication of some sickness or disease.
Not necessarily. Withdrawal of blood would drop Hct/Hgb down significantly while increasing RET% outside the normal range resulting in a high OFF-score. The opposite would occur with the infusion of blood; high Hct/Hgb with suppressed RET%, also resulting in a high OFF-score. It's based on the behavior of the RET% in relation to Hct/Hgb.
That's the beauty of the ABP; blood dopers can get caught in one of two ways -- either in the withdrawal or re-infusion phase.
Here Canova states that he was with Kim McDonald at the time and says that Cherono did not start to train with him until after Kim's death. Canova's story seems to shift more than the wind:
https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&thread=220022
Renato Canova wrote:
Of course there are reasons for fluctuations, different from the assumption of medicines. But a percentage of fluctuation bigger than 10% is very suspicious if the fluctuation is going UP, not if the fluctuation is going DOWN.
You can have, for example, normal values between 44 and 46 of Hct, and suddenly going to 52, in natural way. This is clearly the effect of the assumption of some pharma product.
Instead, if you have normal values between 44 and 46, and your fluctuation at the moment brings the values to 39, of course this is the indication of some sickness or disease.
The fact to have normal values for long time, but some peak out of the norm some times, shows that the probability of assumption of some substance is very high.
For example, Arne Gabius had, in 7 years of OOC tests, values of Hct always included between 41.6 and 42.8, when at sea level, and 42.6 till 43.9 when in altitude. The funny thing is that his values WERE NOT CONNECTED WITH THE LEVEL OF PERFORMANCES, since were the same when he was in top shape, but also when he was completely out of shape, AND THIS CAN DRIVE TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THE LEVEL OF HCT ARE NOT SO RELEVANT IN ORDER TO RUN AT THE MAXIMAL PERSONAL LEVEL.
Coming back to Kiptum, I'm a little bit surprised for his ban, because I think the number of tests OOC is not very high. He was not in the whereabout system till 2018, and of sure before Valencia was not tested OOC in Kenya, because his PB was not so significative. In this case, the number of values out of a well determined personal range can't be very high, and there is room for further investigations.
Why can’t Lucy go the club?
Renato Canova wrote:
10 seconds ? There is no limit to the ridiculous beliefs of people not knowing anything about athletics.
This means that every athlete running 3'36" in clean way (till now about 500 all-time, and not everybody doped, of sure) could run faster than the WR of El Guerrouj taking EPO.
But of course when somebody replaces the brain with the belly, this is the result.....
Hey, pusher.... que pasa yo dildo
Funny interview with Kiprop just appeared. I love Kenyan journalism and the way Kenyans write and speak in English.
His critics, however, trace his downfall to when he was still training under athletics champion Kipchoge Keino. That even though the camp had rules against bringing in women, Kiprop would saunter in with young women who would instinctively drop their clothes when he flashed his money. They believe the old Kipchoge could have pronounced a curse on him.
Kiprop laughs at the accusations. In fluent English that he says he learnt from reading novels and watching movies after dropping out of school, he says: “What an interesting joke! I do not believe in curses.”
When he ran over a pedestrian at Kapseret, it was reported that he was speeding to pick up one of his side dishes. He does not want to revisit the event.
I've noticed the comments under Kenyan articles on dopers have changed from 'what a disgrace to Kenya' to 'what a disgrace the IAAF is. Take the following, for example :
Yakhont Upusass
I am fully behind you Kiprop. Our Athletics authorities are a total disgrace and cowards and should be backing you, not hiding and avoiding to confront the IAAF, and who are known for malice as we saw with the malicious and unproven doping accusations against Russia on very dubious grounds. IAAF especially under Coe should be disbanded...they are a criminal disgrace.
Renato Canova wrote:
I don't change my opinion about the effects of EPO, also after the new of the ban of Kiptum. I'm sure that is possible to run at the WR pace for athletes completely clean, of course when there is the right talent, and the right training.
The general assumption that, if the number 3 in the world is doped, OF COURSE the other 2 athletes faster than him MUST be doped (because is not possible that a clean athlete can beat a doped athlete) is a total bullshit, because in that equation there are not the two most important variables : TALENT AND TRAINING.
People thinking in that way could be right only supposing that ALL THE ATHLETES could have the same talent, and that different training systems don't exist (so the training can produce, ALWAYS, the same final result).
But the talent is not the same, and who never had the opportunity to work with one EXTRA-TALENTED athlete can't also imagine what talent is. I saw Bolt winning World Junior Championships in 2002 when was not yest 16 years old, against sprinters 3 years older than him, and immediately said "this guy in the future will be the new WR holder of 200m and 400m (next year, in 2003, when 16 and half years old, he ran 400m in 45"35). And I think that the NORMAL gap in 200m between the best Bolt and the second best in the World had to be 6-7 meters, SO EVENTUALLY ARE THE OTHER ATHLETES UNDER 19"70 THAT HAVE TO DOPE FOR RUNNING SO CLOSE TO HIM.
The same with Shaheen. The first time I saw him in 1998 (he was 16 years old, and was in training in Iten followed by Joseph Ngure, at that time assistant coach of Brother Colm during the training camp organized for juniors in December, together with Cornelius Chirchir), I said "I hope in the future to have the opportunity to coach athletes like these two. With that talent, I see the possibility to run 3'25" (Cornelius) and 7'50" (steeple), and, when really I could coach Stephen Cherono (still junior), I was not happy of his final WR, because I know he could run under 7'50".
Sometimes there are athletes with something absolutely bigger than other competitors in the same events.
This was the case of Kenenisa Bekele, of Bolt, of Shaheen, of Edwin Moses, of Ashton Eaton, of Zelezny, of Jonathan Edwards, of Yelena Isinbayeva, and of Eliud Kipchoge. All these athletes assemble together big physiological, morphological and biomechanical talent, with incredible mental ability, in terms of continuity, concentration, courage, motivation, and application.
Second factor : TRAINING.
I saw several times in my life big changes, in short time, with athletes already coming from mani years of career, after changing their training, increasing volume and quality of their workouts. Not always a sudden improvement, after years of similar performances at lower level, means doping. We need to know the history of their life before giving any opinion about the athletes. How many times somebody had years of not professional training (having, for example, a full-time job), and, when finally had the opportunity to chose a professional road in athletics, started to train very much more and better, improving everything around the athletic activity, such as rest, recovery, physical assistance with massages and therapies, etc... ?
In Kenya, how many times we met runners (already 30 years old) who worked as farmers in their village, running only 4 times per week, competing in small local races, with problems to eat twice per day because the lack of money, but able running a full marathon in 2:17 - 2:20 in those conditions, who, finally joining a camp where possible to train with a strong group, and to eat twice per day, in 1 year of training were able to move to 2:07 or better without any problem ?
Kiptum belongs to that category. He started his official activity already 27 years old, running a lot of local competition in Kenya, and winning almost every time. With very little training, in 2015 he ran his first marathon in Rabat arriving 3rd in 2:11:36. Next year he had a good HM in Copenhagen running 59'36".
Everybody in Rift Valley knew his great talent, and in my opinion, especially after running the marathon in 2:05:26 in Amsterdam in 2017, he was already one of the group of athletes able to run around 58'30".
What can give me some doubt is that last year, in Copenhagen (16.09), he lost the race by one my athlete (Daniel Kipchumba), running only 59'09", without showing particular shape. However, the WR in Valencia was about 40 days later, and athletes of big talent in 40 days can change very quickly their shape.
What I can say, about the training in altitude, is that it's not possible to justify fluctuations, in the BP, if ALL the OOC tests are in altitude. We can see some difference about the level of Hb and Hct between some test in altitude and at sea level, due to these two different situations ; but never we can see fluctuations if the test are in the same situation (always at sea level, or always in altitude). In the case of Kiptum, all his OOC tests were in altitude, and if there is some fluctuation, this is probably due to the assumption of some medicine.
Hey, pusher...... go coach and pharmacologically "coach" your runners. Real athletes don't believe your WAY too wordy defense of illegal substance abuse.
don't ask questions wrote:
Here Canova states that he was with Kim McDonald at the time and says that Cherono did not start to train with him until after Kim's death. Canova's story seems to shift more than the wind:
https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&thread=220022
That's because he's a pusher. It's what they do.
Renato Canova wrote:
I'm sure that is possible to run at the WR pace for athletes completely clean, of course when there is the right talent, and the right training.
The general assumption that, if the number 3 in the world is doped, OF COURSE the other 2 athletes faster than him MUST be doped (because is not possible that a clean athlete can beat a doped athlete) is a total bullshit, because in that equation there are not the two most important variables : TALENT AND TRAINING.
I'm inclined to agree with Canova to some extent (although of course I'm ignorant as compared to him and Subway - I just think it's faulty logic) but I know that he does discredit his position when he continues to defend caught dopers such as Kiprop and now Kiptum as 'natural outliers' who didn't need to take EPO.
Coevett wrote:
Renato Canova wrote:
I'm sure that is possible to run at the WR pace for athletes completely clean, of course when there is the right talent, and the right training.
The general assumption that, if the number 3 in the world is doped, OF COURSE the other 2 athletes faster than him MUST be doped (because is not possible that a clean athlete can beat a doped athlete) is a total bullshit, because in that equation there are not the two most important variables : TALENT AND TRAINING.
I'm inclined to agree with Canova to some extent (although of course I'm ignorant as compared to him and Subway - I just think it's faulty logic) but I know that he does discredit his position when he continues to defend caught dopers such as Kiprop and now Kiptum as 'natural outliers' who didn't need to take EPO.
Common sense alert here: Canova has been coaching Kenyans for decades, in fact, I would bett Kenya is his second home.
So, why would you expect him to say anything different? Imagine if he started trashing Kiprop & Kiptum saying things like they weren't all that special and their super fast times & stardom was strongly influenced by doping. That would go over in Kenyan land like a fart in church. Lol.
IMO, he has to be very careful about what he says about the Kenyans on discussion forums -- you don't want to demean the athletes from the country that supports you. ?