Road Racing and Training Thread, Week Ending 3/17/2019

Some more comments during a busy week...jot quill: That feeling of invincibility... gotta love that. Seems like you've got a knack for getting yourself to the starting line ready to rock. That really is a huge volume drop!darkwave: Echoing others here. If I had half of your determination I'd be twice the runner I am.jewbacca: It's good to look back and see those averages improving over time.VFRunner: I definitely feel for you. I'm not sure how old you are, but I'm guessing not much younger than I am, given the 1993 date. I It's not a good thing to have to deal with, but you are right... it can also be an opportunity... just sucks when someone else chooses when it's time for you to take advantage of an opportunity.gofamianho: Epic. Classic. You're a hero forever in your daughter's eyes... though she'll forget that for a few of those teen years! Never had that happen here in Taipei... of course we've got flying cockroaches to scare the bats away.Still Improving: Looking so so strong! Good things in your near future!Urban: You are one fast master... I'm getting ready to go out and struggle through 5x1000 at 3:50... I need a new breakthrough :)cocoon: Holy CARP that was a fast Sunday workout. Both you and Still Improving are making me feel a bit sheepish... I need to man upSmoove: Glad to see you pop in! Your patient explanation of Daniels training over the past couple of years was key in my choosing this current 2Q, and it has been a great ride. Thank you for that.Allen: Sweeeeeeet . So glad to see your post this week, especially this:

I'd like to defend my M55-59 title again

Serious work getting done around RRT town. A lot of people pushing their respective envelopes. Thanks for that. I feel like I've lost just a bit of focus recently and I feel like I need to catch back up with the pack or I'm gonna get dropped.

Allen! This REALLY made my day. So glad to hear this news. The absolute best of success to you in your comeback. One day at a time, my friend, one day at a time.

JQ - I wish you a belated and hearty congrats on your 1:16:39. What a great run, and it sounds like you enjoyed it, too. That is the best of both worlds, my friend.

Coyote - You are a beast. Nuff said.

Should get to posting my week on my day off tomorrow. Things have been very busy at work lately. Relaxing and watching the tourney right now...

For you, Allen...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MR6FXpaECY8

Thanks everyone for the kind words! Still have to catch up on the posts and get some comments in...

Have had an extremely rough two days following my race with some bad illness. But hey better after than before the race! Bummed to miss some days of running but forced rest after a race maybe isn't the worst. Keep kicking butt everyone, huge motivation as always in this group!

@Still improving & @LancRunner

I actually ended up taking the advice to take recovery runs more easily now. The week so far has been generally very very slow to recover. Even the workout today was quite low in volume. Taking a page out of Jot Quills' book, I decided that doubling may be a good way to easily increase mileage with the Brooklyn Half coming up in two months and the weather getting better. My aim now is to go for 80 by adding very easy mileage while making sure to stop when I feel like I may be injuring something.

Mo: AM 8.3 @9:00 (just very easy given the race the day before) + PM 6.4 @7:47 (also didn't really feel like wanting to go any faster given the general soreness

Tu: AM 11.7 @7:37 w/ 4*400 w/ 2min active rest @69, 74, 74, 74 and 6*400 hills @~82 + PM 5.5 @7:20

And definitely, had I tapered properly instead of developing the idea that races are terrible because they interrupt proper training weeks, I would have broken 1:20 most likely even with all the hiccups on Sunday. But well, in the end it was a really great experience since I only expected to run 6:20 pace rather than actually coming so close to one of my goals for this year (the others being a sub-3 marathon and a sub-5 mile).

@sub-6:00

Actually for a while I thought that the name of Born to Run was actually Born A Runner and hence I chose this one as a quip in that direction elsewhere before. Even after realizing my mistake I just stuck with it as it reminds me of how awkward I look on race photos.

@Jot Quill

I guess it's ultimately fine. Recovery on the one hand, but also better than going out and then ending up on the sidelines for longer. Hope you get better soon.

I have to say all of this work here is really motivating and makes me realize that I can get up there as well if I just stick with it and put in the effort.

Ugh, thought I would share a frustration with everyone. Had a workout scheduled for today... was supposed to be 4 min at I pace (5:30) and 3 min easy and did that 5 times. But, I just couldn't seem to maintain at 5:30, and ended up around 5:40-5:50 in my I pace sets. Just feel, well, inadequate. Past two workouts have really been tough to hit subscribed paces. I'm not completely rejected by it, but it is a little unsettling. I like the R workouts with short reps and the T workouts... but I seem to be really hard for me.

I dunno... I'll keep at it. Just strange that the R pace workouts and the T pace workouts come to me well, but the I is hard to hit.

Smoove, Daniels expert, what say you? Normal? Or am I just not in as good of form as I thought I might be?

Did you go into the workout tired or anything like that? I'm using my own modified Daniels' plan and trained by Daniels all of last year. I pace was the most susceptible to getting screwed up from fatigue in my experience. Also I is supposed to be hard. Daniels says your HR should be about maxed out for them. I'm not an expert like Smoove, but I can be tough.

How did you feel during and after? Was anything particularly tired? Couldn't find a good flow/felt clunky? How were your times versus pace for R and T stuff?

I totally agree with this.

R is short and sweet.

T is long and strong.

I is in pain. :D

Seriously, "I" is the most sensitive to any variables in my opinion. I tried to do as many as possible on a track to control for that. But even on slight up or downhill, slight head or tailwind, fatigue, excessive heat... Things can go bad really fast...

Trying to hit a pace into the wind... and even if you do, you've already fried the 5th rep!

Anyway, it's training, dude. Be thankful that it was hard. Embrace it. You don't need to judge yourself by any one workout (says the guy who put in 5 x1000 at 80 degrees at "I" earlier today...)

Coach Jeff ROC wrote:

... 5 x1000 at 80 degrees at "I" earlier today...

Daniels I-pace is VO2max pace? Approximately 11-minute race pace? Yeah, those are tough, but my favorite repeats. Although, to be honest, I usually cheated by being pretty generous with the recoveries, and running the repeats on the slow side ... more like 5K "goal pace."

Reading Daniels, I remember being confused by his distinction between "I-pace" and "H-pace." Seemed like they were essentially the same, so why the varied nomenclature? Did I miss something?

Nice workout, BTW, with the 5x1000's. I'm surprised that's so late in Daniels marathon schedule. Thought the VO2max stuff was early in his program. Pfitzinger puts it later as I recall ...

runrincerepeat wrote:

Pewow - thanks for the link. Main reason don’t do much leg work is lack of a gym. So like that bodyweight stuff. I do do air squats etc. and lots of stairs daily!

My “gym” is very rocky esque. Buckets of sand. Some weights. 2 dumbbells and a lot of body weight stuff. Works. Resistance is resistance.

Don't let him BS you Pewow. There is a Planet Fitness that is 15 minutes from work and home at easy pace.

Allen1959 wrote:

Coach Jeff ROC wrote:

... 5 x1000 at 80 degrees at "I" earlier today...

Daniels I-pace is VO2max pace? Approximately 11-minute race pace? Yeah, those are tough, but my favorite repeats. Although, to be honest, I usually cheated by being pretty generous with the recoveries, and running the repeats on the slow side ... more like 5K "goal pace."

Reading Daniels, I remember being confused by his distinction between "I-pace" and "H-pace." Seemed like they were essentially the same, so why the varied nomenclature? Did I miss something?

Nice workout, BTW, with the 5x1000's. I'm surprised that's so late in Daniels marathon schedule. Thought the VO2max stuff was early in his program. Pfitzinger puts it later as I recall ...

I took the pace from the Vdot chart. It’s faster than 5K pace for me, probably something like a 3K/2 mile race pace. I’m in the 90-93% HRmax range. I spend the last 500 of every one telling myself to “relax, but don’t relent.” To me, they’re wicked haad! I feel like toast at the end of every one after the 2nd rep, but 3 mins later the next one still seems doable...

Anyway, that’s the last “I” work.

My reading is that “H” is like unstopwatched “I” but don’t take my word.

9:30pm and just leaving the office. Time for my carbs ;)

Some good feedback already, but I will weigh in too; but first I will note that 1200m intervals (or their functional equivalent)have struck again!

One of the things that I like about Daniels is that it lends itself to a fairly orderly analysis.

So my first question is: how did you determine that 5:30 is your interval pace? Is that based on a recent race performance?

- If it is based on a recent race, then these workouts should be hard and maybe a little intimidating, but ultimately doable.

- If it is based on a goal time or on estimated current fitness, you may simply need to adjust your goal time if you are having consistent trouble hitting interval pace.

Assuming it is based on a recent race performance, was the challenge you had on this workout an aberration, or have you been consistently had trouble hitting your I pace?

- If it is an aberration, I wouldn't worry about it. We all have off days. Sometimes we can pinpoint the issue (we aren't fully recovered from a recent workout, we didn't get enough sleep, weather, allergies, etc.) and sometimes we just have bad days.

- If it is not an aberration, but rather it has been happening consistently despite your pace being established by a recent race, you can consider a few things.

-- First, if your I pace is faster than 5k pace, you may consider adjusting to present 5k pace rather than I pace. Based on what I have seen, most people reap big vo2max benefits from 5k paced work as they do whatever I may turn out to be. I doubt that is the issue here though, since at your level, 5k and I pace align to be within a few seconds of each other.

-- Second, you can consider lengthening your recovery period some. Right now, you are at a 4:3 ratio. Daniels contemplates going as high as 1:1. So you could easily give yourself another :30 of additional recovery and as much as 1:00 of additional recovery and still be within the right range.

-- Third, you may consider moving from active rest throughout the workout to active rest early, and more passive rest later (say active rest after the first two intervals, passive rest for the last two rest periods); or go with a combination of active and passive rest (jog 400m and then kind of mill around for the remaining minute or so of the recovery period)

If your I pace is based on a recent race, but you are consistently having trouble hitting it, and adding a touch more rest or allowing for some passive rest doesn't help, I would consider going away from I work for a short period and then coming back to it. Daniels usually plans I work in 6 weeks blocks. If you have been doing I work as your primary workout for longer than that, you could be getting stale.

Food for thought.

Allen, etc. - I believe it is 12-minute race pace, as the old VO2 max test was how many laps one could complete in a 12-minute effort.

Hey All,

Thanks for the feedback. Let me see, where to start. I guess I left out a lot, so I'll provide some more details.

1. I've been doing an abbreviated cycle, looking at late April for my next race, so I gave it 12 weeks, and just got to the third phase, moving away from R work being the Q1 workout each week, and moving into I work being the main workout for the week. My paces are based off the most recent race data I have, which was in November when I ran a 17:15 5k.

2. I've had workouts where I have hit I pace, and yea, I felt pretty maxed for those... not dead after, but definitely pushing hard.

3. The past two workouts with I pace prescribed (believe VDOT tables put me around 5:28 for I) I have had trouble holding I pace for anything over about 2-3 min. So my reps tend to be at 5:40-5:50 pace.

4. Last workout was not on a track. I was running on the road, but very flat. It was early, 6am, and I'm traveling so in a city and not getting wonderful rest, so maybe I'm just stressing over nothing. I was wearing trainers, not "fast" shoes, and my legs just felt heavy and couldn't get the turnover to where I needed it to be.

I'm seeing that I work is definitely the hardest of the paces for me, but it sounds like it should be. Next time I will keep the rest in mind. This past workout, I must say, the rest was a bit brisk (7:30-8:00 pace) and not a "shuffle" as I sometimes do rather than really running the rest. Maybe that was a bigger contributing factor now that I look at it.

Ok, this has been great and provided a lot of food for thought. I'm not too worried, we'll see how the next one goes and see if I can have another good workout.

Thanks all, let me know if anything I've written jumps out as an issue or if anyone things maybe I should re-evaluate my paces.

Incredibly interesting conversation on Daniels.

I recently read his book (3rd edition) and have considered following the 2Q plan AFTER I "graduate" from Hadd Phase 1 base training.

I just went back and looked at the last workout I did several months ago before starting the Hadd stuff. I did workouts sparingly and basically created them myself. I was not chasing a pace number in the workout. I was just running REALLY fast in those time intervals, and definitely over my theoretical T pace. My workout actually closely resembled the I workout discussed here that didn't go to plan. I just went to Daniels table to see what my I pace should have been for the workout based on my most recent race (about 3 months prior to the workout with no break in running volume). Every interval that I did averaged between 9 to 15 seconds slower (pace per mile) slower than my theoretical I pace. On the final interval, I actually hit my estimated MaxHR several times and I use a very reliable HRM (I hope!).

I guess my point is, that I don't think it would be possible for me to do this workout either. In all fairness, I haven't tried to hit that specific pace. But this got me thinking. The reason that I personally probably can't hit that workout is because I haven't properly trained to work myself up to it. I wonder how religiously you have to hit the workouts in the weeks leading up to the stretch of I workouts to really have the proper prep to handle them? Just thinking out loud here.

My reading of Daniels is that you’re supposed to train at the Vdot you are currently at. You’re not supposed to be training at your race pace Vdot.

Maybe Smoove can chime in on this but in my opinion I would also add an additional caveat. The accuracy of a particular Vdot pace is likely to be most accurate the closer it is to the distance from which your recent race result was drawn.

So if you are using a 2 mile PR for your Vdot, Yourprescribed “i” pace might be very accurate whereas your prescribed M pace may be off (maybe you can hit it easily but can’t hold it). And if you use a marathon, the opposite may be true. Because I have been doing so little work at that fast pace, I’m basically happy with whatever I can get. If I were working more often at that pace, or that pace was more closely related to my goal race, I would probably be more diligent and concerned.

Good discussion.

*You’re not supposed to be training at your GOAL race pace Vdot

Funny. I have the same workout tonight. I'm a bit intimidated by it, especially given that there are supposed to be 30MPH winds this afternoon and I haven't run much at I pace this winter. I think even Daniels states that I pace is the trickiest of paces. Some great discussion here and I appreciate the insights. I think I'm going to do the first set easy enough, aiming for 5k pace and see how it goes from there. Dr. Daniels cautions about going out too hard the first set or two and having nothing left (e.g., not achieving close to V02 max) for the last sets.

Either way, I wouldn't be concerned with not hitting that workout to a "T". You often learn more from "failure" than you do from success and, whether you hit that magical pace or not, your body is still getting loads out of the workout. Finally, at the end of a hard or seemingly "disappointing" workout, I like to remind myself that it's running--something that pushes you, can frustrate you, but ultimately is a true pleasure and something that reminds me of how lucky I am to have a healthy body and (for the most part) mind. Okay, I'll stop waxing all philosophical...

Lanc- I think your rest is fast...