Most Bogus WR??

mos def wrote:

The people already at the very, very top (El Guerrouj, Bekele, Shaheen, Kipchoge, Sihine, Chebii, Mottram) have no need of drugs.

Drugs would introduce for them only a real danger of injury or death, not an improvement in performance.

The ones who benefit most from drugs are the ones on the cusp. Lombard, Mourhit, Said-Sief, Boulami; all good athletes beforehand, but people who really skyrocketed to the top after using drugs.

Why wouldn't drugs be helpful to the people at the very very top? How are they physiologically so different from people at the second-tier?

Kenyans, by nature, are very humble and generous people. That's general, but it is true. quote]

What kind of a ridiculous statement is that? "Kenyans, by nature..." give me a break! Many of them may be nice people, but they are no more humble and generous, etc, "by nature" than any other people on Earth.

There are bad people in Kenya too, Einstein. There's plenty of crime there. I've heard numerous times of well-off former athletes being beaten and car-jacked. Kenya is no more endowed with goodness and humanity than most other countries.

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Woody wrote:

Actually, since the 5000m record by Bo Jiang was surpassed I'll remove the women's 5000 from the list. So we have:

100 meters: Flo Jo

200 meters: Flo Jo

400 meters: Marita Koch

800 meters: Jarmila Kratochvílová

1500 meters: Qu Yunxia

3000 meters: Wang Junxia

10000 meters: Wang Junxia

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Kinda funny that you say Jiang was dirty but the new record holder some how is clean? If you're going to be consistent, and implicate record holders as dirty, then the new record holder is just as guilty as Jiang. Or are you just implicating that all Chinese women record holders are dirty, along with the Eastern Europeans and Flojo?

CrossTrack wrote:

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Woody wrote:

Actually, since the 5000m record by Bo Jiang was surpassed I'll remove the women's 5000 from the list. So we have:

100 meters: Flo Jo

200 meters: Flo Jo

400 meters: Marita Koch

800 meters: Jarmila Kratochvílová

1500 meters: Qu Yunxia

3000 meters: Wang Junxia

10000 meters: Wang Junxia

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Kinda funny that you say Jiang was dirty but the new record holder some how is clean? If you're going to be consistent, and implicate record holders as dirty, then the new record holder is just as guilty as Jiang. Or are you just implicating that all Chinese women record holders are dirty, along with the Eastern Europeans and Flojo?

The latter. The list I posted is intended to implicate all record holders that in my mind are without a doubt guilty of doping. I never said that the new record holder is clean, but you say that it is an almost absolute certainty that she is doping as can be said of the Eastern Europeans, Chinese, and Flo Jo?

No, that's not what I was saying....I was trying to show some flawed logic. If you're implicating Jiang, you have to implicate someone who broke her record.

I wouldn't implicate anyone unless I had more proof than running fast.

Frankly, based on all the records the Chinese broke during their national meet....I'd wonder about whether the track was measured correctly before I'd be concerned about drugs.

"Jacques Rogge was intending to praise the Chinese for their apparent recent efforts to crack down on their athletes before the 2008 Beijing Games. But his comment seems also an acknowledgement that three Chinese world records in track--1500M,3:50.46, Yunxia Qu; 3000M, 8:06.11, Junxia Wang; 10,000M, 29:31.78, Junxia Wang--are highly suspicious. All were set in 1993. Rogge's comment: "There was a period, notably at the world athletics championships in Stuttgart in 1993 when the athletes under Ma Junren were not playing fairly. It was the same for their swimmers at the Rome world championships in 1994.""

http://www.runnersworld.com/cda/daily_news/0,5039,0-0-0-0----10-18-2004,00.html

I don't entirely disagree with you as pertains to the lack of legitimacy of the times at the meet based on non-drug related variables, but even Jacques Rogge blatantly implies drug use with these Chinese athletes.

You wrote and I quote;

"Daniel Komen is clean. He is Kenyan; for you to speak about Kenyans taking performance enhancing drugs is a slander on some of the best human beings around, much less distance runners. You do not understand the Kenyan attitude if you think the fast Kenyans are doping."

I don't see the word "male" anywhere in that statement. And for the record, Kenyans as just as likely to cheat as people anywhere else in the world; they are no more honest or fair minded and no less greedy and dishonest than people the world over.

I can see someone making the case that Kenyans are genetically superior runners, but morally superior people??? Gimme a break.

A great article primarily focusing on the Chinese swimmers, but also mentions the same breathe.

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/swimming/drugs/gendreau.htm

Of course Paula\'s speed decay is off the charts - she runs 10k in 30:01 and a marathon in 2.15:25. That is 4:49 per mile versus 5:10 per mile.

A man who runs 27:00, is running 4:20 per mile. If he slowed down by the same amount as does Radcliffe he would be running 4:41\'s, or complete the marathon in 2.02:45 or so. If you put the 26:20 10K out there, that would compute to just under two hours.

Paula is way OFF the charts. Either she is far and away the greatest distance runner to ever have been on the planet or something is amiss.

Paula\'s marathon is the equal of a 1500 in the 3:42-3:44 range. Think about that for a while.

perspective wrote:

Of course Paula's speed decay is off the charts - she runs 10k in 30:01 and a marathon in 2.15:25. That is 4:49 per mile versus 5:10 per mile.

A man who runs 27:00, is running 4:20 per mile. If he slowed down by the same amount as does Radcliffe he would be running 4:41's, or complete the marathon in 2.02:45 or so. If you put the 26:20 10K out there, that would compute to just under two hours.

Khannouchi's speed decay is even better. His 10k is 4:30 pace while his marathon is 4:47 pace. Even if we use the figures from the same year (as his 10km best was set in 1997), they are 4:30 and 4:51 (2:07:10 mar from '97), which is pretty much exactly the same as Paula's.

Why does no-one question Ndereba's speed decay? 4:59 pace for 10km, and 5:17 pace for the marathon - arguably better speed decay than Paula (just slightly less pace).

Likewise Yoko Shibui... 4:57 pace for 10km, 5:19 pace for marathon - just outside Paula's speed decay. Or Naoko Takahashi - 5:07 pace for 10km, 5:20 pace for marathon.

Paula's speed decay, whilst very good, is certainly nothing unusual. The main difference between her and the other top marathoners (Shibui, Ndereba, Takahashi, etc) is that her basic pace is much quicker (how many of those could run a 8:22 3km??).

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Paula has ran the 10k frequently as a championship event, the others you mention have not raced 10k seriously whilst they were running marathons. Their 10k pb's are relatively "soft" for their abilities compared to their marathon times.

mos def wrote:

Have you read these boards with any regularity? Have you EVER seen an allegation of doping for Ritz, Webb, Culpepper, Meb, Browne, Kennedy, Goucher, Abdi, or any good American distance runner save the most obvious (Flojo, Regina, et. al.)?

I have read the boards with regularity. I have heard pretty much all of them accused of doping at some point. Along with most everyone who ran fast.

Just this past week, Goucher was accused based on his recent fast 5k and his association with Salazar.

I'm sorry but there is absoultely [size=24][/size]no way Paula Radcliffes 2:15:25 is clean.

I would like to propose another point of view concerning Wang Junxia's 10,000m World Record 29:31 performance.

I believe that Paula Radcliffe's 2:15:25 Marathon World Record re-inforces the fact that a female CAN cover 10,000m in 29:30+. Check ANY performance table, VDOT, ask your coach or any coach from the 1970-1980's and they will tell you that a MALE athlete capable of running 2:15 has to have the capacity of running close to 29:05 +/- for 10,000m in order to even consider running 2:15 for the marathon distance.

So, bottom line, is that perhaps Junxia was trained specifically for 3-10K and with 8:06, 3000m speed, 29:31 was just a matter of time. And remember, Junxia was also an Olympic Medallist, so it is not like she was a one-hit wonder.

At least in my mind, Radcliffe has positively affirmed to me that Junxia's record is clean. If not, than Radcliffe is dirty herself and 2:15:25 is the most bogus WR, in my book.

SJD,

By the way, regarding Khalid Khannouchi, his road 10K best is 27:47, which when converted to a track 10K is closer to 27:10 (WR on track is 26:20, WR on road is 27:02), which makes his 10K pace 4:20 and his marathon pace 4:48, a difference of :28 seconds.

And, if you have noticed, not many critics of marathon racing believe Khannouchi was clean when at his best.

If a 2:15 marathoner should be able to run a 29:00 10km, then similarly:

2:18 - - 29:45

2:19 - - 30:00

2:20 - - 30:15

etc, etc...

Funny how Ndereba has never come within 75 seconds of 29:45

Funny how Shibui has never some within 45 seconds of 30:00

Funny how Okayo has never come within 2 minutes of 30:15

See how pointless is it to use one man's speed decay as a measuring stick for women's performances?

I actually believe that Catherine Ndereba could run close to 29:45 if she trained specifically for the 10K, just like I believe that Paula Radcliffe could run under 29:30 for 10,000m if she specifically prepared for that event. Everyone knows that Margaret Okayo is capable of a sub-31:00 10K time, even on the roads.

On the Run wrote:

SJD,

By the way, regarding Khalid Khannouchi, his road 10K best is 27:47, which when converted to a track 10K is closer to 27:10 (WR on track is 26:20, WR on road is 27:02), which makes his 10K pace 4:20 and his marathon pace 4:48, a difference of :28 seconds.

And, if you have noticed, not many critics of marathon racing believe Khannouchi was clean when at his best.

Still doesn't detract from the examples of Ndereba, Shibui, Takahashi, etc..

A few more examples....

Margaret Okayo: 5:22 pace for the marathon, 5:12 pace for 10km.

Joan Benoit: 5:23 pace for marathon, 5:10 pace for 10km

Svetlana Zakharova: 5:24 pace for marathon, 5:13 pace for 10km

If Paula's times are bogus then, surely, so are the times of most of the other top female marathoners, right? All the above examples show that Paula's speed decay is by no means "off the scale" or extraordinary.