dead legs
dead legs
Another giver of +1 wrote:
SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:
Same if we take the more known example Yuki Kawauchi. He just run singles and still have run 2.08 .
Yuki runs singles but is not an example of a low mileage runner.
I didn`t write that either. He is more like the medium mileage guys, in singles.
Running is like any other skill, the more you practice it the more efficient you become. So high mileage has a positive effect on running economy.
Alan
Food for thought.... wrote:
It's always interesting how the 'mileage is king' brigade always say that the runners who were successful on lower mileage schedules would have improved with more. 'Imagine what he'd have run if he'd have trained properly' etc. Surely that can just as easily be turned around? Maybe the 120-150 mpw guys would have run faster if they'd have cut their volume down to 70 mpw but trained faster with more sessions? Was Shorter as good as he was because of his mileage or despite it?
There also seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding that the only way to to stress the aerobic system is with longer, slower runs. 6x1000m @ 10-15k pace with 800m jog recovery is a very aerobic session and also more specific to race pace.
I think that was a very good thought! ( and I assure you I am not "Food for thought" ). I think, or we can say I`m convinced
, that the high mileage brigade 120-150 mpw had been faster on less mileage with their `exact` best individual paces . That we can never know because they didn`t try it out.
Low Mileage wrote:
High mileage is overrated unless you are specializing in the marathon. Too many garbage or junk miles thrown in that mean very little. Doug Padilla, a very talented runner in the 80's, was well known for running very little mileage often averaging about 35mpw during his training. He followed more of a high quality training program that relied heavily on intervals both long and short to develop aerobically and anaerobically. He also trained at 4,500ft of altitude. In so doing he ran personal bests of
1500 meters: 3:37.95
Mile: 3:54.2
3000 meters: 7:35.84
5000 meters: 13:15.44
As an athlete, Padilla is one of the most decorated athletes in BYU history. While competing for the Cougars from 1978–81, he earned eight All-America citations and a National Championship in the indoor 2 Mile, regarded as one of the great moments in BYU Sports history. He rewrote the BYU record book, setting new marks in the indoor mile and two mile and outdoor 1500 and 5000 meters. In 1991, he was inducted into the BYU Athletic Hall of Fame. While still a collegian, he was called on to race two athletes that were current world-record-holders: Henry Rono of Kenya and Washington State, and Suleiman Nyambui of Tanzania and UTEP. Padilla came away with a victory over each, the latter to win the indoor national championship.
After college, Padilla was a 12-time US national champion while setting seven American records. His indoor two mile and indoor 5000 meters records each stood for over 20 years. A two-time Olympian, he is a veteran of five world championships. His accolades include victories in the 5000 meters at the 1985 World Cup and the 1986 Goodwill Games. From 1983 to 1987 he won five consecutive national indoor championships, four national outdoor championships, and two U.S. Olympic trials. In 1985 he was the IAAF World overall Grand Prix Champion. He is still the only runner to break the four-minute-mile barrier inside the state of Utah.
Padilla was a very fast sprinter. When he was in top shape, he was known for his ability to outkick many other world-class runners, including the 10,000-metre European, World and Olympic champion Alberto Cova of Italy.
I'm not saying that this will work for everyone but it is a training program that has worked for others.
While I do agree some runners boasting of extreme mileage can't be good for many, and probably can really mess yourself up from if not approached carefully..but..
The guy you cited is a genetic outlier, It's a crazy story but I am sure that he accounts for like .02% of elite runners
Low Mileage wrote:
High mileage is overrated unless you are specializing in the marathon. Too many garbage or junk miles thrown in that mean very little.
You're wrong.
Doug Padilla, a very talented runner
Correct. You try his program and see if you can break 15 or not.
In the case of Doug Padilla, when Doug did increase his mileage into the 50+ range or even a little bit higher he always ended up injured.
No . He ran up to 70 in winter regularly. I think tinman has stated this numerous times, both on this forum and others.
In fact, i'm pretty sure there's a schedule somewhere. i'll look for it.
OBN:
Somebody asked about Doug Padilla's training the other day, and I dug this up.
Fall training:
M. a.m. 3-5 miles easy
p.m. 5-10 miles@ 5:45-6:00 pace.
T. a.m. 3-5 miles easy
p.m. mountain running, 4-6 miles uphill run
W. a.m. 3-5 miles easy
p.m. 1-2 x 800@ 2:20-2:30, 5-6 miles easy
Th. a.m. 3-5 miles easy
p.m. mountain running
F. a.m. 3-5 miles easy
p.m. 1-2 x 800@ 2:20-2:30, 5 or 6 miles fartlek or single line passing.
S. a.m. long easy run
p.m. long easy run (up to 17 miles for the day)
S. Rest.
Here it is.
History wrote:
Though I am not an expert in physiology or in training, I have studied (for fun) elite runners training as well as much of it from over the past century. One of the common themes is moderate to high mileage. There are some but very very few runners especially for mile up that experienced a lot of success without hitting around 70 mpw for at least some of the year. Depending on who you are you may consider this low, moderate or high mileage....Even today most (not all) highly successful 800m runners spend at least some portion of the year running 50mpw + when considering the distance of the event is relatively high in comparison.
Now saying that just about everyone that I have studied that has been highly successful in our sport also does faster to moderate paced runs during train(duh). I do not know of any runners off the top of my head that have only did slow mileage without ever hitting at least marathon pace or faster during training (I’m considering anything that touches marathon pace or faster to fall within moderate or faster spectrum). Some obviously hit moderate to fast paces more than others. Some have found high amounts of success doing as little as 1 moderate to fast paced efforts (tempos,fartleks,intervals) every week. Some do some sort of moderate to fast paced efforts almost daily...
Saying all that we understand that even slower paced running promotes physiological benefits that are beneficial to distance running events without a high amount of stress.
Again by no means am I an expert but the general idea is to create a sustainable systematic approach that will make a runner faster without a high risk of injury or burnout.
From a physiological perspective and practically speaking moderate to high intensity training though very beneficial also promotes the greatest risk for significant injury and in general requires more recovery before the body is ready. LSD is a more sustainable approach that you can do day in and day out without a high risk of injury while still applying stress to the body that will result in running faster.
Sure you can get injured but it typically happens over a longer period of time and typically there are warning signs prior and often the injuries are less significant vs HIT where it often happens instantaneously with little to no warning signs.
In my experience I was more high intensity low volume in high school and ran ok (16 min). My first time doing higher mileage I doubled what I did in high school from 25-35 to 50-70 mpw consistently for 1.5 to 2 months. During that span all my runs where at 630 to 830 pace and I only did 2 workouts where I hit paces faster than my everyday pace. As a result I dropped my pr 30 secs 6 weeks in while going out like madman and only 18 secs slower than my mile pr during that 5k.
Obviously there are huge variants but generally speaking there are very very few exceptions of individuals that have run what we consider elite without relatively moderate to high volume.
My guess is that if you where to put together a study that included every runner that has ever run relatively fast let’s say sub 4, sub 14, sub 29:30 my guess is less than 10% achieved this without hitting 70mpw + for atleast a portion of the season.
To conclude, its hard to say there are absolutes and there are always exceptions but to give your self the best odds at being successful in our sport from a training perspective (I’m assuming you possess the talent). You need both relatively higher mileage/volume along with occasionally running paces that would touch the moderate to faster section of the spectrum. Those that choose to ignore history and do only high volume or only high intensity give themselves the lowest chance of being successful assuming they possess the genetic talent to make it far in our sport.
Sorry for long winded, poorly structured and ungrammatical response. It’s like walking on eggs or land mines around here.
+10...love it
AerobicMonster wrote:
OBN:
Somebody asked about Doug Padilla's training the other day, and I dug this up.
Fall training:
M. a.m. 3-5 miles easy
p.m. 5-10 miles@ 5:45-6:00 pace.
T. a.m. 3-5 miles easy
p.m. mountain running, 4-6 miles uphill run
W. a.m. 3-5 miles easy
p.m. 1-2 x 800@ 2:20-2:30, 5-6 miles easy
Th. a.m. 3-5 miles easy
p.m. mountain running
F. a.m. 3-5 miles easy
p.m. 1-2 x 800@ 2:20-2:30, 5 or 6 miles fartlek or single line passing.
S. a.m. long easy run
p.m. long easy run (up to 17 miles for the day)
S. Rest.
Here it is.
Add another 2-3 miles for warm ups and cool downs, and that would about 100 miles. Not high mileage, pretty moderate. What I would suspect.
Many ways to skin a cat
Old topic wrote:
Many ways to skin a cat
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=907089
Very important note from nobby, quote:
"Training, or evaluation of training, should always be looked at as a line, or a flow, not a point (of time). Some well-known physiologist posted the weekly training of Herb Elliot and claimed he only trained 30 miles a week. Well, that was his typical trainig week during the racing season when he didn't train much. He was running up and down the sand dune more like 80 to 90 miles a week months before the season began."
This is a very important note. Steve Ovett is another example, he ran 100+ miles during the winter. But, if you looked at his mileage during track season it was less than 50 miles per week. If you only looked at his training during track season one would conclude that you don't need that much mileage. But if you looked at the whole picture you would conclude you do need to run moderate amount to high amount of mileage. It is like a painting, stand to close you won't understand that little bit of the painting. You must step back to look at the whole painting to understand that little bit you were looking at.
talent actually matters most wrote:[/b
talent applies to your kid.
i ran those times on 25 miles a week and never ran more than 5 miles once in high school. never heard of a tempo run until college. ran 49 splits and 1:54 800m and 16:00 in XC. only ran 2 seasons. trained doing clyde hart workouts and could run 23 in the 200.
all talent.
All the olympians/elites (the actual talented guys) I’ve met are all very humble, down to earth guys. Clearly you are an out of shape idiot who rambles on the internet talking about your fantasies. Go somewhere else.
2 runs on days ending with a y wrote:
Running is fun, especially easy running. Most people who double are just doing 5-10 (most never reach 10 unless they are averaging over 100 in their other runs) easy. It lets you go explore places, gives you something to do in the afternoon - or in the morning before work instead of sit around until you drive to work. It takes almost nothing away from the main run of the day. I don't understand why even advocates of a low mileage approach wouldn't just go out and do an extra 5 mile jog a day. 35 mpw could become 65. I can understand for people who's jobs have long hours and force them to do all their training at one time or have some obligation where their running can only be done at a specific time window. Or maybe a middle distance runner who spends a lot of time on drills and weights.
But for everyone else, what are you doing that you can't double?
Ok! I am convicted I will start some doubles I swear!!!
Haha wrote:
talent actually matters most wrote:[/b
talent applies to your kid.
i ran those times on 25 miles a week and never ran more than 5 miles once in high school. never heard of a tempo run until college. ran 49 splits and 1:54 800m and 16:00 in XC. only ran 2 seasons. trained doing clyde hart workouts and could run 23 in the 200.
all talent.
All the olympians/elites (the actual talented guys) I’ve met are all very humble, down to earth guys. Clearly you are an out of shape idiot who rambles on the internet talking about your fantasies. Go somewhere else.
true, i am out of shape now because i don't run more than 1-2 times a week these days.
what pros have you met that are down to earth guys?
seriously, i had no idea what a tempo was until running in college and my cross country/track coach was a sprinter when he ran in college, so we ran sprints
GBohannon wrote:
mousey mousekewitz wrote:
Well, you obviously weren't really training/racing hard like a high school or college runner when you were running 17:04. I went from 17:40 my first ever XC race my junior year of high school and ran 14:30 in college. Also ran 4:06 mile and 1:51 800. split 48
I never did more than 55-60 miles per week because i would get injured/sick/over-trained/uninterested/you name it. If i could handle 100 mpw, would i have been faster? Maybe, but i would have required a different, more durable body. That's not how it works. Durability and mental toughness are parts of talent and you get what you get.
i bet you have a low pain threshold and do a 24-25 mile run in training for the marathon as a "confidence booster"
my friend started running in his 20's and is now a 2:32 marathoner (started at 3:30 or something), but the amount of volume and workouts he does blows my mind. I am a 2:28 guy and if i did the workouts he does, i would be a 2:22 guy. He doesn't trust his ability to push in a race or sharpen with a taper. He only trusts his current fitness and really can't push hard. i'd say he doesn't have a racing instinct or ability to suffer. you kinda sound like that person too.
1) Correct - I was not training as hard as a college runner when I was going 40-50 mpw and hitting 3:00:27 in the marathon. Very astute observation.
2) I’ve never run further than 21.4 miles in my life excluding races. I’ve only been over 20 thrice.
3) I race frequently and sharpen well with a taper
4) I have a tremendous racing instinct and you’re wildly poor deductive reasoning skills have offended me. You’re a 2:28 guy? What race are you doing this fall? I will sign up for the same one and destroy you. We can talk about my ability to suffer afterwards.
5) I am not kidding.
SO aggressive.
I am not kidding.
mousey mousekewitz wrote:
SO aggressive.
I am not kidding.
So, you don’t want to race? I am shocked.
High_Meterage wrote:
Low mileage 1500 training 3:29.77
High mileage 10k training 3:28.81
AerobicMonster wrote:
Low Mileage wrote:
High mileage is overrated unless you are specializing in the marathon. Too many garbage or junk miles thrown in that mean very little.
You're wrong.
Doug Padilla, a very talented runner
Correct. You try his program and see if you can break 15 or not.
In the case of Doug Padilla, when Doug did increase his mileage into the 50+ range or even a little bit higher he always ended up injured.
No . He ran up to 70 in winter regularly. I think tinman has stated this numerous times, both on this forum and others.
In fact, i'm pretty sure there's a schedule somewhere. i'll look for it.
I was there.
I did break 15 quite easily but couldn't break 14. I did however run more miles especially in the morning.
In the winter, Doug was busy with the indoor season which he excelled at. He was not logging 70 miles a week, ever as he was racing a lot. He also took time off after the European track season was over. He would run but very little and very slowly. Doug was also out of shape in October, November, and early December when he started up his training. I remember running a mile time trial indoors in Provo in early December. I was ahead of Doug, as were many others, with 200m to go thinking that I was actually going to beat him. Then....whoosh......there he goes zipping by me as if I was standing still.
GBohannon wrote:
mousey mousekewitz wrote:
SO aggressive.
I am not kidding.
So, you don’t want to race? I am shocked.
I'm not training for any racing since I had kids, BROhannon. not important to me. I was a mid distance guy anyway like I said, and the half marathon / marathon training was never interesting to me. Running 5k-42k pace just wasn't that fun for me.
Let's say you won the marathon challenge race you suggested. Congrats and good luck on being a mid 2:20's runner. That's really fast but, unfortunately, it's right there in no-mans land and pretty much means nothing to anyone but other Letsrunners. Way above average, but slower than elites or the possibility of a career as a runner...
I'll happily challenge you to a 800m or shorter race and "destroy you"though if you'd like to keep the challenge alive.
mousey mousekewitz wrote:
GBohannon wrote:
So, you don’t want to race? I am shocked.
I'm not training for any racing since I had kids, BROhannon. not important to me. I was a mid distance guy anyway like I said, and the half marathon / marathon training was never interesting to me. Running 5k-42k pace just wasn't that fun for me.
Let's say you won the marathon challenge race you suggested. Congrats and good luck on being a mid 2:20's runner. That's really fast but, unfortunately, it's right there in no-mans land and pretty much means nothing to anyone but other Letsrunners. Way above average, but slower than elites or the possibility of a career as a runner...
I'll happily challenge you to a 800m or shorter race and "destroy you"though if you'd like to keep the challenge alive.
I appreciate the semi-lighthearted response as I was being over the top on purpose (I assume that was clear). 800m? If you are near Michigan, I could be talked into that. Full disclosure - I regularly split sub 2:00 in HS (never ran the open, but did lead off the relay) and will train hard for speed if we set this up, so you will need to be at least somewhat fit if you plan to destroy me. Granted, I won’t touch 48/1:51, but expect a 1:57ish type challenger.
Long story short, mileage is king,