It is not that she is easily beating world class athletes that is a red flag as it’s the doubling at USA indoor champs, world indoor champs, USA outdoor champs and now this big PR in Europe that are the red flags. Today was her 4th race in 14 days. And she looked as if it was a Genzabe Dibaba 3:50 race she would have no problem. Her last 400 in 61 was off of 4:00 pace.
Bonzol wrote:
Everyone accusing her is a horrible person. I can 100% guarantee she is clean.
I'm thinking she is clean, but how can you 100% guarantee she is clean?
c7runner7 wrote:
Ask a family member, friend, former coach, former teammate, or anyone that has personally known Shelby, if they think there’s a somewhat reasonable chance she is doping. I can almost guarantee they will all say they believe with 99% certainty (you can never be absolutely sure) she is clean.
Those people’s opinions of her character matter a lot more than the rest of these uniformed, purely speculative comments.
To be honest though, Shelby has achieved what I’ve always aspired to: To become so good, you get accused as doping. It’s when you know you’ve truly become elite... so CONGRATS SHELBY... you’ve made it!
As someone that actually knows i can say with a 99% certainty that shelby houlihan or anyone coached by jerry is clean
if she wasn't American, this wouldn't even be a discussion on this forum. She'd have been hung, drawn and quartered already. Muir gets constant drug accusations from you folk, despite never having had as significant improvements as Simpson, Rowbury and now Houlihan.
Simpson goes 4.11 to 3.59 at age 21
Rowbury goes 4.12 to 4.00 at age 21
Houlihan goes 4.03 to 3.57 (with further improvement likely, based on yesterday's race) at age 25
I'm not saying that any of these girls are cheats, in fact I think it's more than likely that they aren't (specifically Simpson and Rowbury, don't know enough about Houlihan yet to make a judgement) but this is more a rebuttal to the constant snidey comments I read about Muir on here. Not to mention the utterly baseless idea that her 'pastiness' somehow makes her ability unnatural
speshal wrote:
if she wasn't American, this wouldn't even be a discussion on this forum. She'd have been hung, drawn and quartered already. Muir gets constant drug accusations from you folk, despite never having had as significant improvements as Simpson, Rowbury and now Houlihan.
Simpson goes 4.11 to 3.59 at age 21
Rowbury goes 4.12 to 4.00 at age 21
Houlihan goes 4.03 to 3.57 (with further improvement likely, based on yesterday's race) at age 25
I'm not saying that any of these girls are cheats, in fact I think it's more than likely that they aren't (specifically Simpson and Rowbury, don't know enough about Houlihan yet to make a judgement) but this is more a rebuttal to the constant snidey comments I read about Muir on here. Not to mention the utterly baseless idea that her 'pastiness' somehow makes her ability unnatural
It's nice. Pleased to meet you. Still won't tell you I dope. Don't you want to shoot with me. Don't you want to play my game. Tonight I'm living in a fantasy. My own little nasty world. Tonight do you want to come with me. Do you think I'm a nasty girl.
That's right I can't control it. I need 7 miligrammes or more. Tonight I can barely hold. Shoot it up. Shoot it up. I can't wait any more.
I guess I'm just used to Kenyans. I think they got EPO on the brain. I think they got more EPO upstairs then they got sugar on the candy cane.
Nasty girls, dope dope dope
hilarious how many people are ready to cite her quality in youth races to back up this performance
I doubt anyone in that race yesterday doesn't have high quality results dating back to their teenage years.
What is undeniable is that Houlihan has been a moderate international class runner until the age of 25 and then has suddenly shaved huge chunks off her best while looking indestructable. That is a huge warning flag.
Lot of bias on this board. If she was from North Africa, Russia, Ethiopia or Kenya, the posts would be 90/10 calling her out, as it is we're under 50/50
yes,she is.all the tell tale signs are there.muscular cuts,a widening jaw,sunken face,growing adams apple.she now resembles the turks,and russians.in fact i thought she was russian,when i first looked at her.
#cleansport wrote:
Bonzol wrote:
Everyone accusing her is a horrible person. I can 100% guarantee she is clean.
I'm thinking she is clean, but how can you 100% guarantee she is clean?
She is way too successful to be clean. One should always remember that most runners cheat, thus the winner is among the most likely cheats.
But I can't guarantee that.
3:55, nuff said. Look at the other ladies with such a result.
She has “ Improved her Performance “ at the Elite Level. Beating the likes of Hassan and Muir.
How can she be clean.
People need to learn the history of doping cultures in the sport.
Noah Lyles gave himself away when he mentioned going to the “ famous German Doctor”.
Think its more a case of define dirty, is what is going on currently illegal or is it yet to be determined illegal. But there is definitely something in the air
Over the last couple of years more and more women are closing in on sub 4 . five years ago low 4 was a good time on the circuit and would have got you attention. Now its the entry point
At World Indoors 3 women made Shelby look an also ran. Anyone smelling the coffee would have had to question the way those three went away from a talented field not once but twice . Even certain medalists had the look of how have I not won i'm dodgy and i'm still getting beat.
Now its outdoor season and Shelby is now with those runners , even possibly better. Think some info was picked up at or after the world indoors ? or was it just better rep sessions improving aerobic performance.
The whole of sport is currently in a very strange place . Froome gets away with what others have been banned for, basically due to money / clout of his organisation. fans from each country think they are the only ones playing fair. Look on this thread US and UK stringent testing etc. WADA etc have shown themselves to be useless. The top cheating athletes are not going to be caught by the testers, its just a game. If you get caught by testers these days its because you've upset someone or not paid your fees. Those in power in athletics have so many skeletons they are not going to sort it out.
Everyone knows Russia was cheating at London Olympics but not good old UK USA etc, but they were trouncing known doped athletes . Russia were caught doping old style. they wont make that mistake again. But they can just say that their athletes are doing more core work now and working more on their aerobic performance.
julsome wrote:
I think it's definitely feasible that she's not doping. She did a podcast w/ Carrie Tollefson recently where she talks about her history and build up with the sport. Worth a listen if you're wondering- training bit goes from about 4 to 10 min below.
https://player.fm/series/c-tolle-run/ep-72-shelby-houlihan-believe-you-canhttps://player.fm/series/c-tolle-run/ep-72-shelby-houlihan-believe-you-canShe talks about how by senior year of high school she was training as a sprinter and only running 20 mpw. In college she built up 10 mpw / year- 30, 40, 50 and then 60 mpw. When she transitioned to being pro- she kept her mileage steady due to the increase in intensity of training w/ Jerry's group. She's now up to 80 mpw. Scary to think she could add even a bit more in mileage and/or reap the benefits of consistent training at 80 and what that could allow her to do in the 5k. Her coming onto the scene really started in 2016 in the 5k. She was probably ready to run faster the past two years in the 15 but Jerry thought she'd have a better chance in the 5k due to how stacked the 15 was at the time - Jenny, Shannon, Kate, Brenda, etc.
So no, I don't think it's an immediate conculsion that she's doping. It's possible, but I'd like to believe she isnt.
When Mo offers a similar explanation - how he wasn´t really 100% serious about training before he came to Salazar - people laugh at him.
^This poster gets it. The real question is not whether she dopes (the answer is obviously yes), but whether or not she joined the group of protected cheats like Farah and Jager who don't need to limit their drug intakes.
jeff tallon wrote:
yes,she is.all the tell tale signs are there.muscular cuts,a widening jaw,sunken face,growing adams apple.she now resembles the turks,and russians.in fact i thought she was russian,when i first looked at her.
This.
And the sudden jump in performance
Bad Wigins wrote:
when she sees this thread she will know she has officially reached the top. You have to be suspected of doping to be a real elite.
^^ pretty much
Perhaps we have to take a page from Tour De France.........supposedly they don't care what you take as long as
your hematocrit reading is 40 or less on the day of competition........can only do at the major events I guess as it would be cumbersome and expensive but a sure wa to catch the cheaters.
The other thing to do is to have the athlete be responsible for testing him/herself and publishing the results.
Third thing, is lie detector tests. The legal profession does not want us to know this, but, they are highly reliable.
Open your eyes, people wrote:
jeff tallon wrote:
yes,she is.all the tell tale signs are there.muscular cuts,a widening jaw,sunken face,growing adams apple.she now resembles the turks,and russians.in fact i thought she was russian,when i first looked at her.
This.
And the sudden jump in performance
It is not unusual for a runner, even an elite or sub elite runner, to toil in relative obscurity and make a breakthrough...elevating themselves to another level entirely. Happened to me on several different occasions, absent any doping and due solely to a huge amount of hard training. Absent of any convincing evidence of doping, I always give the runner the benefit of the doubt. Idle speculation is a fools errand.
Longdistancerunning wrote:
No one likes to point fingers at Americans for doping and I love Shelby but to me it seems weird that she has dropped 7 seconds in the 1500m in the past couple months with her PR today of 3:57 and doesn’t even look that tired at the end with a lot of room to kick. I don’t want to be rude I just want it to be up for discussion .
By all means question if she is doing, but if she is, how doped is dibaba?
wish i could wrote:
i really wish i could root for her, but 100% she is dirty. everyone arguing that she had great 'natural' speed in high school were probably the same ones arguing LANCE was clean, because he was such a talent.
again, really hope i am wrong, but she is def juicing.
This is the kind of disinformation shade that cheating Russkies have to post in order to meet their posting quota. Russkies cheat. The head of your lab sold you out.
Shelby is just a natural progression of a good runner. She was NCAA champion and almost won it twice. After a few years of increasing training and natural maturity, she is now a good international runner.
Go away Natasha. Give Boris the night of his life.
read my mind wrote:
I was thinking about making this thread earlier. Not only is she more fit, but she's more muscular (less doughey) and her face looks more cave man-ish (sunken in). Either her recent training has had drastic effects on her body or something else is going on.
One need look no further than Laura Muir to see that hollow cheeks and low body fat are not necessary conditions for 1500m success.