Breaking: Caster Semenya WILL challenge IAAF's new rules on hyperandrogenism

Stopcecil! wrote:

I don't meet all the requirements physically to compete with other men at an elite level. Should special rules be in place so I can?

Exactly, I don't know where you draw the line, and the IAAF seems to be unable to enforce or define what a male or female is when it comes to competition. Why not introduce definitely quantifiable catergories such as testosterone classes, height or weight classes, leg length classes etc? This would probably make track and field more interesting to follow.

get in quantifiable categories wrote:

Exactly, I don't know where you draw the line, and the IAAF seems to be unable to enforce or define what a male or female is when it comes to competition. Why not introduce definitely quantifiable catergories such as testosterone classes, height or weight classes, leg length classes etc? This would probably make track and field more interesting to follow.

I think the problem is that there is already too many events at track meets as it is with race walking, hurdles, steeple chase, etc. It works for something like boxing because that is all they do is box and the sport is popular enough, but if you create too many competitive classes in track, pretty soon you'll have more competitors than spectators.

OLD SMTC SOB wrote:

intenserunner wrote:

How is it determined that someone is more "feminine" and deserves to compete in the female category without any hormone therapy? CAS has 3 times the female testosterone level - higher than many males.

What I meant to say is that without lifetime of high testosterone CAS would likely appear much more like traditional female. Didn’t mean to imply that even looking more feminine now (with internal testes and high testosterone) it should make any difference in relation to competing with other women. Should not be allowed to. There was another poster that suggested some kind of alternate category which might make sense at some point. But we are a long ways from anything like that.

CAS is the name of the Court for Arbitration of Sport who will hear this case and so you are making your posts quite confusing by seemingly using CAS instead of 'Caster Semenya'?

Anyway testicles cannot be 'the deal breaker' unless you can prove beyond reasonable doubt that they make a difference. It's not as simple as you think. Women with hyperandrogenism conditions are generally resistant to testosterone, i.e. they lack testosterone receptors or are not as sensitive to testosterone as normal women and even men.

Hence serum testosterone levels could have no effect on the persons physical attributes. This is what Dutee Chand's lawyers put forward and which was accepted by CAS because it is scientifically true and definitely so in her case.

Semenya appears to be more sensitive to testosterone than Dutee Chand, given that when Semenya was put on oestrogen she had physical changes that were clear for everyone to see. But how sensitive? I don't know. The IAAF doesn't know. Without definitive research that clearly links testosterone levels to sensitivity to performance the IAAF doesn't have a good case that would be upheld by CAS.

Semenya could well argue that her performance is being hindered more than other women by being on hormone replacement because the upsetting of her natural balance could be far more detrimental than the performance enhancement it's attempting to level out. Also removal of the organs is not such a simple option, she would still need to be on hormone replacement therapy following surgery, and the question is what is the hormonal balance that she should be administered? Ovaries produce both testosterone and oestrogen as do testicles. It's just the average levels of each hormone differ and a healthy human needs both.

I think sponsors should just walk away from these events until the message finally hits home. We do not want to watch Caster or others lime her race against normal women. It is not interesting or fair. So I challenge all sponsors to boycott these events until it gets sorted out. Sorry for the innocent victims, but it is a the only way to fix the problem. One man's opinion....

rojo wrote:

The helicopter video is funny but off as it's not quite that simple. If I had a child that was born without a penis, I'd assume they were female. This is far from the CT HS situation.

I'm proud of her for being a powerful woman - unfortunately based on her genetics I don't thinks she should be allowed to be a world class athlete in the women's category. If she wants to run 1:55 in some all-comers meets or men's competition, I'm all for it.

You think she is a powerful woman (the way she was born) yet should be required to compete against the men (because of the way she was born)?

Nodge wrote:

Simply solution...

Let the other women raise there testosterone levels to the same as Caster,then you will have a even playing field.

Yes, because all women want to have high testosterone and all men want all women to have high testosterone.

It’s an illusion to think the playing field is ever fair. If it was we would all finish with identical times and racing wouldn’t even make sense. It wouldn’t exist.

C/M Runner wrote:

Personally, I'm glad she's protesting. While I do not agree that the playing field is fair, I think she should protest and try to fight it, regardless of how the outcome turns out for her. I would lose more respect if she took the ruling and then complained about "that's not fair!" later when she's competing WITHOUT attempting to fight it. I understand her view point.

I think this case opens up a big can of worms. I'm really curious on how it will end up and how the sport will change as a result.

get in quantifiable categories wrote:

Stopcecil! wrote:

I don't meet all the requirements physically to compete with other men at an elite level. Should special rules be in place so I can?

Exactly, I don't know where you draw the line, and the IAAF seems to be unable to enforce or define what a male or female is when it comes to competition. Why not introduce definitely quantifiable catergories such as testosterone classes, height or weight classes, leg length classes etc? This would probably make track and field more interesting to follow.

Because nobody knows what classes to introduce, and they are likely to be immediately challenged if IAAF doesn't have some evidence backing up the classes... which, really, is exactly what has happened and where we are now.

Since it is so difficult to prove who is "female" and who isn't, and since we are now allowing men to compete as "female" under certain conditions, why do we not just get rid of the "female" category and make a new "low-testosterone" category in its place? Or simply redefine the term "female" in the rule books "For the sake of competition, 'female' will be defined as...[insert strict scientific definition here]". Then these court cases will be more clear cut. It seems the only reason that the rules can be challenged is due to them being poorly defined.

That takes real balls to take on the IAAF.

intenserunner wrote:

Since it is so difficult to prove who is "female" and who isn't, and since we are now allowing men to compete as "female" under certain conditions, why do we not just get rid of the "female" category and make a new "low-testosterone" category in its place? Or simply redefine the term "female" in the rule books "For the sake of competition, 'female' will be defined as...[insert strict scientific definition here]". Then these court cases will be more clear cut. It seems the only reason that the rules can be challenged is due to them being poorly defined.

If the categories are not about being male or female, then why have categories? Testosterone categories are not fool proof are not inherently just.

Yeah right wrote:

I think sponsors should just walk away from these events until the message finally hits home. We do not want to watch Caster or others lime her race against normal women. It is not interesting or fair. So I challenge all sponsors to boycott these events until it gets sorted out. Sorry for the innocent victims, but it is a the only way to fix the problem. One man's opinion....

I know it's a very common theme on Letsrun to assume your opinion is held by all other humans on Earth except for a few weirdos, that's not the case.

The sexism on these boards is disgusting

What advantage? Seven women have better PRs. Three of those seven are over a second better that the alleged ADVANTAGED one. 26 women are closer to Semenyas time than Semenya is to the WR. Prove advantage.

intenserunner wrote:

--- pretty soon you'll have more competitors than spectators.

Look around you at the next HS dual meet you go to--- then subtract the parents and siblings of the athletes

and

pretty soon might actually be now.

Think of the men’s division as the “open” or “unlimited “ category. Anyone can compete.

Think of the women’s division as the “restricted” or “limited” category. You can only compete if you meet certain criteria.

That is why a superhuman man (or woman) could compete in the men’s division, but an ordinary man cannot compete in the women’s division.

Perhaps relabeling the two divisions would clarify things and eliminate some of the negative stigma associated with being made to compete in a category whose label doesn’t match your gender identity.

Advocatus Diaboli wrote:

What advantage? Seven women have better PRs. Three of those seven are over a second better that the alleged ADVANTAGED one. 26 women are closer to Semenyas time than Semenya is to the WR. Prove advantage.

A decent 1:55 male runner lines up against a bunch of women and beats them. He's no closer to the WR than Semenya is. Does the young man have an advantage over the rest of the field?

Advocatus Diaboli wrote:

What advantage? Seven women have better PRs. Three of those seven are over a second better that the alleged ADVANTAGED one. 26 women are closer to Semenyas time than Semenya is to the WR. Prove advantage.

Fetch me a woman who has also run 50:xx and a sub 4 1500. I'm sure you can find 26 of those.

intenserunner wrote:

Since it is so difficult to prove who is "female" and who isn't, and since we are now allowing men to compete as "female" under certain conditions, why do we not just get rid of the "female" category and make a new "low-testosterone" category in its place? Or simply redefine the term "female" in the rule books "For the sake of competition, 'female' will be defined as...[insert strict scientific definition here]". Then these court cases will be more clear cut. It seems the only reason that the rules can be challenged is due to them being poorly defined.

It’s undoubtedly 5 ARD syndrome. There are two kinds, both involve chromosomally male children being born with malformed or missing property male sexual characteristics due to an inability of the foetus to utilise testosterone in the womb for development. Often this leads to the children being brought up as female, sometimes after surgery to help them along.

The problem becomes more apparent at puberty. One type of 5 ARD, the type Dutee Chand likely has, doesn’t allow uptake of testosterone at this time either and the person remains outwardly female looking despite chromosonally being male.

The other type, that Semenya, Niyonsaba, Wambui etc have allows uptake of T to differing levels, often normal levels and causes male secondary sexual characteristics to develop.

The confusion is being caused by no one being irritated to talk about what disorder Semenya actually has, and sacrificing women’s athletics so as to avoid offending him.

Talking about ‘intersex’ is a misnomer in most cases. Semenya is male because he has enough testosterone uptake to have physically developed as a male.

Just why is Semenya so keen to race as a female? Surely it should be a cause for sone celebration that he has so successfully developed male secondary sexual characteristics and seems so keen now to take on the traditional male role in life away from athletics. The answer must be that it is very rewarding for him to race against female athletes and dominate them, without this, he is nothing. He could race against the men, but chooses to perpetuate this nonsense so he can feel like a star.

I agree with the idea that the elite woman take it into their own hands and do something about it. Most of them aren’t allowed to air their views in public for fear of losing sponsors or state athletics contracts. Standing for a timed 15 seconds in the start line after the men start their race then having their own female race should do the trick. Even if a few athletes only do it, the reverberations around the world will take the focus off Semenya and back to the real victims in this. How many women now have lost medals to men who have 5 ARD syndrome?