Dick Quax, RIP

harry wales wrote:

KPH wrote:

Chronic knee and Achilles injuries. He was still trying to come back in '84.

Smooth runner. Here he is on the road in '80.

Here he is where?

Right there.

Josey Wales wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2bS9yUZ_mI

Thanks brother. Love how they are racing on the sidewalk with minimal traffic control.

K-P looks effortless, just the way Quax did (although not exactly the same running form).

harry wales wrote:

Josey Wales wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2bS9yUZ_mI

Thanks brother. Love how they are racing on the sidewalk with minimal traffic control.

K-P looks effortless, just the way Quax did (although not exactly the same running form).

K-P does look good, but I like the arms held higher.

viren and blood doping.

i think viren was the real deal without reindeer juice, and would have been on the podium, but a place or two down in some instances...

back in the day the exact protocol and timing of the finnish transfusion technique was in the public domain, ...

like a miracle, finland had half a dozen world beaters, then after the doping fiasco, the numbers of podium placings dropped to exactly zero.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/viren-s-talent-not-just-in-the-blood-1.1165284

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2983877

http://sportsci.org/jour/0101/ss.htm

this thread has tons of stuff...

---------

The major problem with that entire screed is... it wasn't illegal at the time. He was within the rules if he did it.

If you go on Youtube, there is a video of the second half of the 1980 10,000m final and David Coleman actually mentions the suspicions that Viren was blood doping ("blood changing" as Coelman puts it) but Coleman also points out that "they are quite legal" and indeed explains how they work.

So, A) it wasn't a very well kept secret if it were true, as the announcer mentions it being a wide spread rumor in 1980 already, and B) the only argument is some kind of weird moral one, because he wasn't cheating by the day's standards.

coachkritter

RE: Regarding Viren and blood doping 4/23/2009 4:54PM - in reply to no prodigy me

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Marti Vanio, another Finn, 2nd at LA-80 Olympics, admitted blood doping. His drug test came back positive for steroids, and he said it must have happened when he extracted blood during the winter (while on steroids) and re-injected it before his race.

Martti Sakari Vainio (born 30 December 1950) is a Finnish former long-distance runner. In Finland he is recognized as the last of the great runners of the famous "V-line", the previous ones being Juha Väätäinen, Lasse Virén, and Pekka Vasala. Each of them won at least one gold medal either at the Summer Olympics or the European Athletics Championships in the 1970s.

one story released to the public alleged that Vainio's training partner, janitor Alpo Nyrönen, had given Vainio a hormone injection by accident, instead of the intended Vitamin B injection. Vainio himself released the explanation about the confusion between anabolic steroids and testosterone only several years after the incident.

Yes, it was the summer of 1968, when a runner - one of our top runners - mentioned to me that Jouko Kuha had received a blood transfusion before he broke the 3000m steeplechase world record. The informant specifically emphasized to me that "do not print this information"...

A year ago [1970] one prominent sports doctor told after Juha Väätäinen made his record run (10000m 28:19.6) that he had received a transfusion. So I made the claim based on this information. If the information isn't accurate, it is because these people have lied to me.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?t=31353&start=280

Dr. Kaarlo Hartiala - a regular accredited team doctor and a future member of the IOC Medical Commission - mentioned that "on theoretical level, the matter has been known for a long time". He was a prominent Finnish participant of the 1966 meeting of Scandinavian exercise physiologists where blood doping was discussed and referred perhaps precisely to the research carried out by Åstrand, Ekblom and others discussed there.

The caveat is that the consensus view of the interviewees was that the method wasn't carried out in order to take unethical shortcuts but only to fine-tune blood values when they have fallen. "If the exercise load is far too heavy, blood values will shrink, in which case transfusion is the last option to elevate the values", told one runner. "It is a fact, that if the hemoglobin value is low, oxygen uptake will elevate if the athlete is given red blood cells", Dr. Pekka Peltokallio - the accredited Finnish team doctor of many future Summer Olympics - also stated as a fact.

Peltokallio went on to admit publicly right after the 1972 Summer Olympics that he had heard about a "few cases" of transfusions taking place in Finland, detailing three years later that there were three cases he knew with absolute certainty but "of course also rumours". (In 1981, he admitted administering one transfusion himself in 1972 for the Summer Olympics)

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?t=31353&start=280

1) Italians - high glycerol freezed blood (-90 celsius)

2) Russians - according to Mikhail Kalinsky, researched both refrigerated and frozen blood.

3) Finns - supplies of blood bank, some mostly unsubstantiated rumours about blood donated during high altitude training that was later reinfused

4) LA84 cyclists - matched donors.

5) Moser protegés of Ferrari - possible access to the high glycerol freezer of the Ferrara Lab

6) Joop Zoetemelk - supply of a blood bank

(ie. not a single confirmed case of refrigerated blood)

Here is the English translation of the Mikko Ala-Leppilampi blood doping essay I promised, if anyone is interested. It is a truncated version and roughly half of the length of the original essay with even some people and paragraphs omitted completely and no references as only a handful of readers have any access to Swedish and Finnish sources. All the references can be found from my blog if anyone is truly interested.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bz2uJgdLxwkbeVZwRHVrVEpVREE/view

" the method wasn't carried out in order to take unethical shortcuts but only to fine-tune blood values when they have fallen"

the above text is a quote from a blood doping doctor.

it is the rational of the dopers before they went down the slippery slope.

and it points out the fine line between what is doping and what is not.

the fins also referred to testosterone not being an anabolic steroid, for blood doping of some sort with testosterone

are probably the 2 finest PEDs ever.

the fins said. it is perfectly reasonable, fair,

you look at red blood cell count, and then you top it up to :"where is should be", which is to say optimal.

also of course you use blood taken after a rest period, nice and clean, nice and optimal. you know, the way it should be.

then of course, after the transfusion worked so well, lets improve the technique and get a change of blood after barely making the final. lets recover, so the we run in the final the way it should be.

that's the way to do it on the MTV, money for nothing , chicks for free.

Today´s Finn 1500m record is still 3:36.33 from 1972 still by Pekka Vasala.

Today´s Finn 5000m record is still 13:16.3 from 1972 by Lasse Viren.

Today´s Finn 10000m record is 27:30.99 still from 1978 by Martti Vainio

quantum jump in 1970s

no improvement in 40 years.

this is true of GB as well from the early 80s - in all events. except for Mo.

today´s Finland national records

1500m 3:36.33 Pekka Vasala 10.9.1972

Mile 3:55.65 Ari Paunonen 26.6.1977

3000 m 7:43.2 Lasse Viren 27.7.1972

Two miles 8:14.0 Lasse Viren 14.8.1972

5000m 13:16.3 Lasse Viren 4.9.1972

10000m 27:30.99 Martti Vainio 29.8.1978

Very interesting. It doesn't settle anything but it is really interesting. Thanks.

“He has got that extra blood in him,” said Ron Dixon of New Zealand.

done.

longjack wrote:

“He has got that extra blood in him,” said Ron Dixon of New Zealand.

done.

Well, yeah, except that it's really not done. It's very unlikely anyone will ever know for sure.

HRE wrote:

longjack wrote:

“He has got that extra blood in him,” said Ron Dixon of New Zealand.

done.

Well, yeah, except that it's really not done. It's very unlikely anyone will ever know for sure.

That is, no one aside from Viren and maybe a handful of people who were or are very close to him will ever know for sure.

Maybe the New Zealand runners in the 70's weren't doing as distinct Lydiard phases as New Zealand runners from the 50's and 60's or the Finns in the early 70's? Walker and Dixon seemed to race throughout the year.

Maybe the early New Zealand guys and the Finns had much more dramatic peaking.

a pain in the weltschmerz wrote:

Maybe the New Zealand runners in the 70's weren't doing as distinct Lydiard phases as New Zealand runners from the 50's and 60's or the Finns in the early 70's? Walker and Dixon seemed to race throughout the year.

Maybe the early New Zealand guys and the Finns had much more dramatic peaking.

Reminded me of this thread: