Jeff Wigand wrote:
Bad Records wrote:
spent most of his time away from where he could be monitored by outside sources.
Australia?
I thought he ended up spending a lot of time training in the UK?
Jeff Wigand wrote:
Bad Records wrote:
spent most of his time away from where he could be monitored by outside sources.
Australia?
I thought he ended up spending a lot of time training in the UK?
It's not only the Kenyans of course:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/aug/04/doping-hotspot-ethiopia-drug-testing-epo
Tbh I think the 3000 record is a bit weaker than the others. Tbh Farah could probably have given it something of a crack. He might not have had 12:40 in him, but he definitely had 12:4x in him, and he was a 3:28 as opposed to 3:29. Don't think he would have, but I think he could challenged 2nd all time.
It's close to insurmountable though, even if I do think its weaker than the 12:37. 26:17 I think is probably the most achievable of any of those three.
Fentrekker wrote:
No. You clearly have not read the research on doping, and frankly, you don't understand the disparate talent level in your comparison (nothing against Luke, who is a good chap). Comments such as the above are part of the reason we have such a such a problematic discourse about PED in this sport. If the drugs were as powerful as you suggest, many more athletes would be taking them and many more would be getting caught. The marginal difference EPO makes on an athlete seems more than marginal when we are talking about the difference between 13:00 and 12:40. And that is a zone where taking them might be very tempting. But a 13:30 guy is not going to become a 12:40 guy outside of being dragged behind a truck, and probably the motivation to cheat is not quite as high for most of the 13:30 guys.
Baloney! With unlimted use of rocket fuel the sky is the limit with a high responder. Moroccan Mohammed Mourhit was a 13:29 or so guy who became a 12:49 guy, and 15th fastest all-time 5000. He slipped up and was caught glowing on the eve of the World half-marathon championships in 2002 (about 2 yrs after the crude on-phase test came out). This is what makes oxygen-vector doping so unpredictable and can unlevel the playing field pretty quickly with high-responders. Before the ABP, low baseline crits could get jacked-up 30% - 40% into 55+ territory. At least no more industrial-size 02-vector doping with the ABP.
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2003-05-22/mourhit-suspended-until-may-2004-report/1858206?pfmredir=smhttps://www.iaaf.org/athletes/belgium/mohammed-mourhit-12678Tron wrote:
he coulda been faster wrote:
nothing is "easy" at 4:00 pace
There was a thread i asked this question how serious Bekele's attempts were to Komens record and if you look at the pacing, they really weren't good WR attempts. Just look at the splits in Bekele's...all over the place
Bekele 7:26.69 Bekele 7:25.79 Komen WR 7:20.69
200m : 28.25 28.1 29.13
600m : 60.06 60.12 57.5
1,000m : 61.29 61.23 59.26
1,400m : 61.92 62.2 57.66
1,800m : 60.95 59.09 59.91
2,200m : 58.84 59.05 58.37
2,600m : 58.35 60.07 59.75
3,000m: 57.08 56.04 59.09
1st km = 2:29.57 2:29.45 2:25.89
2nd km = 2:33.15 2:30.43 2:27.29
3rd km = 2:23.99 2:25.92 2:27.49
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=8650733
If Bekele gave the 3000m WR a good go in his 2004/05 seasons he probably could have broken it.
In his 2007 season he ran in the 7:25/26 range on multiple occasions and I believe he could have run 7:21 if he was set up for a WR attempt really well. Believing Bekele was actually even faster in the 04/05 seasons maybe 7:18 was possible.
I find Komens WR to be worth a 7:18 if he had better pacing during it that too.
If you've got a spare 7.5 minutes, For the uninitiated:
Not Buying It wrote:
Fentrekker wrote:
No. You clearly have not read the research on doping, and frankly, you don't understand the disparate talent level in your comparison (nothing against Luke, who is a good chap). Comments such as the above are part of the reason we have such a such a problematic discourse about PED in this sport. If the drugs were as powerful as you suggest, many more athletes would be taking them and many more would be getting caught. The marginal difference EPO makes on an athlete seems more than marginal when we are talking about the difference between 13:00 and 12:40. And that is a zone where taking them might be very tempting. But a 13:30 guy is not going to become a 12:40 guy outside of being dragged behind a truck, and probably the motivation to cheat is not quite as high for most of the 13:30 guys.
Baloney! With unlimted use of rocket fuel the sky is the limit with a high responder. Moroccan Mohammed Mourhit was a 13:29 or so guy who became a 12:49 guy, and 15th fastest all-time 5000. He slipped up and was caught glowing on the eve of the World half-marathon championships in 2002 (about 2 yrs after the crude on-phase test came out). This is what makes oxygen-vector doping so unpredictable and can unlevel the playing field pretty quickly with high-responders. Before the ABP, low baseline crits could get jacked-up 30% - 40% into 55+ territory. At least no more industrial-size 02-vector doping with the ABP.
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2003-05-22/mourhit-suspended-until-may-2004-report/1858206?pfmredir=smhttps://www.iaaf.org/athletes/belgium/mohammed-mourhit-12678
Do you really think Mourhit was only capable of 13:29 off the sauce? He was a cheater for sure, but he was also had a lot more speed than Luke P. The sauce is not as powerful as you think.
LM wrote:
Tbh I think the 3000 record is a bit weaker than the others. Tbh Farah could probably have given it something of a crack. He might not have had 12:40 in him, but he definitely had 12:4x in him, and he was a 3:28 as opposed to 3:29. Don't think he would have, but I think he could challenged 2nd all time.
It's close to insurmountable though, even if I do think its weaker than the 12:37. 26:17 I think is probably the most achievable of any of those three.
Do you seriously think Mo Farah could have challenged Komen's record??
I get why people discuss Geb and Bekele and El G and Lagat, but I'm rather surprised someone tries to drag Farah into the discussion.
seriously99 wrote:
LM wrote:
Tbh I think the 3000 record is a bit weaker than the others. Tbh Farah could probably have given it something of a crack. He might not have had 12:40 in him, but he definitely had 12:4x in him, and he was a 3:28 as opposed to 3:29. Don't think he would have, but I think he could challenged 2nd all time.
It's close to insurmountable though, even if I do think its weaker than the 12:37. 26:17 I think is probably the most achievable of any of those three.
Do you seriously think Mo Farah could have challenged Komen's record??
I get why people discuss Geb and Bekele and El G and Lagat, but I'm rather surprised someone tries to drag Farah into the discussion.
Mo simply doesn't deserve to be included in these conversations. He had more than ample opportunity to take a swing at any of these and all he did was an indoor 2mi. And from what we saw there, none of the outdoor WR runs were ever a possibility for him.
I'll give him his due for the London Marathon this year, but in the track, he walked away from any attempt at even running a fast time.
Don't blame it on pacers. Watch Bekele's 10 000m attempt in Eugene. Pacers Schmacers.
Props to Mo for Mo Medals. But 7:20? He never ran with those kinda balls.
wtfunny wrote:
seriously99 wrote:
Do you seriously think Mo Farah could have challenged Komen's record??
I get why people discuss Geb and Bekele and El G and Lagat, but I'm rather surprised someone tries to drag Farah into the discussion.
Mo simply doesn't deserve to be included in these conversations. He had more than ample opportunity to take a swing at any of these and all he did was an indoor 2mi. And from what we saw there, none of the outdoor WR runs were ever a possibility for him.
I'll give him his due for the London Marathon this year, but in the track, he walked away from any attempt at even running a fast time.
Don't blame it on pacers. Watch Bekele's 10 000m attempt in Eugene. Pacers Schmacers.
Props to Mo for Mo Medals. But 7:20? He never ran with those kinda balls.
How hard would 2 back-to-back 3:40 1500s be for Mo? Bekele, Geb, El G were all capable.
3:40/3:40 7:20 wrote:
wtfunny wrote:
Mo simply doesn't deserve to be included in these conversations. He had more than ample opportunity to take a swing at any of these and all he did was an indoor 2mi. And from what we saw there, none of the outdoor WR runs were ever a possibility for him.
I'll give him his due for the London Marathon this year, but in the track, he walked away from any attempt at even running a fast time.
Don't blame it on pacers. Watch Bekele's 10 000m attempt in Eugene. Pacers Schmacers.
Props to Mo for Mo Medals. But 7:20? He never ran with those kinda balls.
How hard would 2 back-to-back 3:40 1500s be for Mo? Bekele, Geb, El G were all capable.
Apparently 2 back-to-back 4:01 miles were beyond Mo. 8:03.40
His 3000m pr is 7:32.62
So sure, drop 12 seconds off that. It's only 6 seconds per 1500m.
Mo had plenty of chances to run a world record class time. And he never came close. He doesn't deserve to be mentioned in this kind of conversation. That's something earned, and Mo simply never earned it, or even tried to.
Geb, Bekele and El G didn't come close either, but at least they gave it a shot. Mo's pr is more than as far behind the WR as Bekele's was, and six times as far behind El G.
Run_Stat wrote:
Tron wrote:
There was a thread i asked this question how serious Bekele's attempts were to Komens record and if you look at the pacing, they really weren't good WR attempts. Just look at the splits in Bekele's...all over the place
Bekele 7:26.69 Bekele 7:25.79 Komen WR 7:20.69
200m : 28.25 28.1 29.13
600m : 60.06 60.12 57.5
1,000m : 61.29 61.23 59.26
1,400m : 61.92 62.2 57.66
1,800m : 60.95 59.09 59.91
2,200m : 58.84 59.05 58.37
2,600m : 58.35 60.07 59.75
3,000m: 57.08 56.04 59.09
1st km = 2:29.57 2:29.45 2:25.89
2nd km = 2:33.15 2:30.43 2:27.29
3rd km = 2:23.99 2:25.92 2:27.49
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=8650733If Bekele gave the 3000m WR a good go in his 2004/05 seasons he probably could have broken it.
In his 2007 season he ran in the 7:25/26 range on multiple occasions and I believe he could have run 7:21 if he was set up for a WR attempt really well. Believing Bekele was actually even faster in the 04/05 seasons maybe 7:18 was possible.
I find Komens WR to be worth a 7:18 if he had better pacing during it that too.
i got komen at 7:16 rested with proper pacing.
wtfunny wrote:
3:40/3:40 7:20 wrote:
How hard would 2 back-to-back 3:40 1500s be for Mo? Bekele, Geb, El G were all capable.
Apparently 2 back-to-back 4:01 miles were beyond Mo. 8:03.40
His 3000m pr is 7:32.62
So sure, drop 12 seconds off that. It's only 6 seconds per 1500m.
Mo had plenty of chances to run a world record class time. And he never came close. He doesn't deserve to be mentioned in this kind of conversation. That's something earned, and Mo simply never earned it, or even tried to.
Geb, Bekele and El G didn't come close either, but at least they gave it a shot. Mo's pr is more than as far behind the WR as Bekele's was, and six times as far behind El G.
Do you have a clue what 8:03.4 is for 3k? 7:27.5 .. Indoors... And with a faster pace earlier on he could have knocked two more seconds off of that. Komen's deemed "Mt Everest of Records" was his indoor 7:24.9 and Farah was right on that. He would better Haile G's fabulous 7:26 for 2nd A-T at that. One would think if he had gone to Monaco to race the 3000 instead of 15 in 2015, he'd given the WR a scare
ex-runner wrote:
Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:
But the 1500m and 5000m records are also insurmountable.
With the Kiprop bust and the Lagat EPO situation I have started to come to the opinion that running 3:26 might not be possible without drugs. I didn't think this before, but now it seems to me that ~3:28 is probably a limit for clean human performance
When you strip it all down it is completely obvious 3:26-27 times are suspect or even 3:28. The athlete has to run through 1k in 2:18 and be relaxed enough to do it for another 50% again.
Run_Stat wrote:
wtfunny wrote:
Apparently 2 back-to-back 4:01 miles were beyond Mo. 8:03.40
His 3000m pr is 7:32.62
So sure, drop 12 seconds off that. It's only 6 seconds per 1500m.
Mo had plenty of chances to run a world record class time. And he never came close. He doesn't deserve to be mentioned in this kind of conversation. That's something earned, and Mo simply never earned it, or even tried to.
Geb, Bekele and El G didn't come close either, but at least they gave it a shot. Mo's pr is more than as far behind the WR as Bekele's was, and six times as far behind El G.
Do you have a clue what 8:03.4 is for 3k? 7:27.5 .. Indoors... And with a faster pace earlier on he could have knocked two more seconds off of that. Komen's deemed "Mt Everest of Records" was his indoor 7:24.9 and Farah was right on that. He would better Haile G's fabulous 7:26 for 2nd A-T at that. One would think if he had gone to Monaco to race the 3000 instead of 15 in 2015, he'd given the WR a scare
He was 5 seconds behind Komen out of season 2-mile run in Sydney. So, no, not close.
This isn't about what "one would think if ...."
It's about "Mo never ..."
And he didn't.
interestinggg wrote:
what are u babbling about m8? wrote:
No entries in the top-20 since 2011, no close assaults since El G
1 7:20.67 Daniel Komen KEN 17.05.76 1 Rieti 01.09.1996
2 7:23.09 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1 Bruxelles 03.09.1999
3 7:25.02 Ali Saïdi-Sief ALG 15.03.78 1 Monaco 18.08.2000
4 7:25.09 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Bruxelles 28.08.1998
5 7:25.11 Noureddine Morceli ALG 28.02.70 1 Monaco 02.08.1994
6 7:25.16 Daniel Komen KEN 17.05.76 1 Monaco 10.08.1996
7 7:25.54 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Monaco 08.08.1998
8 7:25.79 Kenenisa Bekele ETH 13.06.82 1 Stockholm 07.08.2007
9 7:25.87 Daniel Komen KEN 17.05.76 1 Bruxelles 23.08.1996
10 7:26.02 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Bruxelles 22.08.1997
11 7:26.03 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Helsinki 10.06.1999
12 7:26.62 Mohammed Mourhit BEL 10.10.70 2 Monaco 18.08.2000
13 7:26.69 Kenenisa Bekele ETH 13.06.82 1 Sheffield 15.07.2007
14 7:27.0+ Daniel Komen KEN 17.05.76 1 Sydney 28.02.1998
15 7:27.18 Moses Kiptanui KEN 01.10.70 1 Monaco 25.07.1995
Excluding Bekele top 15 are all between 94 and 00.... Makes you wonder......
Either they ran far more 3k's back then or there was some 3k sauce involved.
I just want to note that I am one of the few people who think that the 5k/10k records are stronger than the 3k.
ex-runner wrote:
With the Kiprop bust and the Lagat EPO situation I have started to come to the opinion that running 3:26 might not be possible without drugs. I didn't think this before, but now it seems to me that ~3:28 is probably a limit for clean human performance
I also believe that the clean limit is somewhere in the 3:28/3:29 range.
One of the arguments thrown around about Lagat being clean was that his stride was so smooth and effortless. Well that was certainly the case with Kiprop too. I think El G, Lagat and Kiprop have two things in common - they were extremely talented AND they took EPO. That's how you get a superhuman performance.
DC Runnerman wrote:
ex-runner wrote:
With the Kiprop bust and the Lagat EPO situation I have started to come to the opinion that running 3:26 might not be possible without drugs. I didn't think this before, but now it seems to me that ~3:28 is probably a limit for clean human performance
I also believe that the clean limit is somewhere in the 3:28/3:29 range.
One of the arguments thrown around about Lagat being clean was that his stride was so smooth and effortless. Well that was certainly the case with Kiprop too. I think El G, Lagat and Kiprop have two things in common - they were extremely talented AND they took EPO. That's how you get a superhuman performance.
There's a quote floating around from Matthew Kisorio who got popped for steroids but also admitted to taking EPO and other drugs, he ran a 58:4x for the half.
"I know that a lot of medical substances are used, which are injected straight to the blood for the body to have more oxygen. And when you run, you run so smooth. You have more stamina."
Straight from a talented athlete that has been on the drug. I'm starting to think the effortless, smooth running of Kiprop, Lagat, El G and others might have at least something to do with a pharmaceutical advantage.
ex-runner wrote:
DC Runnerman wrote:
I also believe that the clean limit is somewhere in the 3:28/3:29 range.
One of the arguments thrown around about Lagat being clean was that his stride was so smooth and effortless. Well that was certainly the case with Kiprop too. I think El G, Lagat and Kiprop have two things in common - they were extremely talented AND they took EPO. That's how you get a superhuman performance.
There's a quote floating around from Matthew Kisorio who got popped for steroids but also admitted to taking EPO and other drugs, he ran a 58:4x for the half.
"I know that a lot of medical substances are used, which are injected straight to the blood for the body to have more oxygen. And when you run, you run so smooth. You have more stamina."
And Christain Hesch said he felt like a Kenyan "floating down the road." ?
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/10/15/sports/runner-christian-hesch-describes-doping-with-epo.htmlWell, IDK. I took a crack at it last weekend and came within 12 minutes of it (actually a bit less than 12 minutes). When you look at the overall scheme of things, (the Universe is over 13 BILLION years old - over 7 QUADRILLION minutes!), 12 minutes doesn't really seem like that much. Just need to sharpen up with some speed work at this point.