Jeff Wigand wrote:
Americans had access to blood boosting, steroids and, in the 90s, EPO as much as anyone else. People who think that East African success in distance running is largely because of drugs have a skewed sense of reality.
Here I agree with you. I also remember USATF covering up over 100 positive tests...
casual obsever wrote:
Jeff Wigand wrote:
The majority are doing it the right way. It's gotten a lot tougher to be at the top and get away with cheating.
A) The Tübingen/Harvard study says that 44% (likely underestimated, according to the authors) were drug cheats at the World Championships in 2011.
B) Seppelt showed that medal winners were more likely to cheat than the also-rans.
A+B: the majority of winners dope.
Better quit providing facts & statistics...rekrunner is likely to stop by and contradict. ?
casual obsever wrote:
Jeff Wigand wrote:
The majority are doing it the right way. It's gotten a lot tougher to be at the top and get away with cheating.
A) The Tübingen/Harvard study says that 44% (likely underestimated, according to the authors) were drug cheats at the World Championships in 2011.
B) Seppelt showed that medal winners were more likely to cheat than the also-rans.
A+B: the majority of winners dope.
I would put it closer to 20% of the top elite body (that's excluding countries like Russia, Belarus and Ukraine).
Jeff Wigand wrote:
casual obsever wrote:
A) The Tübingen/Harvard study says that 44% (likely underestimated, according to the authors) were drug cheats at the World Championships in 2011.
B) Seppelt showed that medal winners were more likely to cheat than the also-rans.
A+B: the majority of winners dope.
I would put it closer to 20% of the top elite body (that's excluding countries like Russia, Belarus and Ukraine).
You're saying then 80% are clean of the top elite body? Are you implying then that just lower-tier elites are doing most of the doping? Any reason why most of top elite body are clean?
The big man wrote:
Kiprop
If it's Kiprop wouldn't they mention that it's an Olympic Champion, or do Kenyans not really like to brag about his post facto Olympic triumph?
If it is Kiprop then let's just finally admit that Ovett, Coe, and Cram were the GOATS.
Nobody could ever take Kenyan middle-distance running seriously again, just as most rational fair people can't take Moroccan performances seriously.
Whoever it is, Kenya needs to be suspended for at least one Olympic cycle.
Would be tragic for genuine Kenyan track fans to have to accept that even with a population of 70 million devoted to distance running, they still can't come close to pasty white boys running clean 40 years ago.
Right, because one of their 1500m runners getting busted would mean that all of their 1500m runners who have run faster than those “pasty white boys” would be doping right? Not fallacious at all.
Coevett wrote:
The big man wrote:
Kiprop
If it's Kiprop wouldn't they mention that it's an Olympic Champion, or do Kenyans not really like to brag about his post facto Olympic triumph?
If it is Kiprop then let's just finally admit that Ovett, Coe, and Cram were the GOATS.
Nobody could ever take Kenyan middle-distance running seriously again, just as most rational fair people can't take Moroccan performances seriously.
Whoever it is, Kenya needs to be suspended for at least one Olympic cycle.
Would be tragic for genuine Kenyan track fans to have to accept that even with a population of 70 million devoted to distance running, they still can't come close to pasty white boys running clean 40 years ago.
How do we know these pasty white boys that were never tested and have no medical history details or biological passport were clean?
ezby wrote:
Coevett wrote:
If it's Kiprop wouldn't they mention that it's an Olympic Champion, or do Kenyans not really like to brag about his post facto Olympic triumph?
If it is Kiprop then let's just finally admit that Ovett, Coe, and Cram were the GOATS.
Nobody could ever take Kenyan middle-distance running seriously again, just as most rational fair people can't take Moroccan performances seriously.
Whoever it is, Kenya needs to be suspended for at least one Olympic cycle.
Would be tragic for genuine Kenyan track fans to have to accept that even with a population of 70 million devoted to distance running, they still can't come close to pasty white boys running clean 40 years ago.
How do we know these pasty white boys that were never tested and have no medical history details or biological passport were clean?
+1
We don't know the white boys were clean and we don't know they were likely doped.
There is a cloud of suspicion around Coe only.
We can reasonably surmise that both morcelli and Guerrouj were doped between 91-2004 because the majority of these north africans were subsequently busted and have been shown to be inveterate dopers .
Then we had ramzi busted
If kiprop goes down that's pretty much every 1500 champion for the last 25 years presumed drugged
Interestingly in the twitter post it mentioned “Agent and the word “too much”.
Whomever it is had previous ADVRs.
It has to be the Rosa's again
Boots. wrote:
It has to be the Rosa's again
And Kiprop is represented by Rosa according to IAAF.
Might be Kemboi
I wish the journalists would spill the beans. They have information but they do nothing to pursue it, then stuff will get buried and the sport suffers.
Spill it!
roflcopter wrote:
Right, because one of their 1500m runners getting busted would mean that all of their 1500m runners who have run faster than those “pasty white boys” would be doping right? Not fallacious at all.
You mean yet another African and or Kenyan champion busted?
Coe, Ovett, Cram were tested, probably more than any other athletes in the world at the time. EPO didn't exist then, and the 'cloud of suspicion' over Coe relates to his blood infection which many here assume was the result of blood doping. Never mind that blood doping was actually legal back then and Coe played a major role in having it banned (and recorded his best 1500m time after it was banned and at just under 30 years of age). Brits ran slower when EPO came on the scene. At some point around 1990, British middle-distance runners supposedly suddenly decided to abandon the cheating, just when the most powerful PED of all appeared and it was obvious dozens of African elites runners were megadosing on it. Maybe the election of Saint Tony Blair? But wasn't that 96?
But nothing would convince you types that Africans are more likely to cheat. Despite the lack of testing, the easy availability of EPO, the huge incentives to escape a lifetime of poverty, living in societies in which corruption, bribes, and cheating the norm, Africans today are no more likely to have doped than Europeans in the 1970s who were still laregely amateurs.
The ebony fetish is really strong with you guys.
Coevett wrote:
roflcopter wrote:
Right, because one of their 1500m runners getting busted would mean that all of their 1500m runners who have run faster than those “pasty white boys” would be doping right? Not fallacious at all.
You mean yet another African and or Kenyan champion busted?
Coe, Ovett, Cram were tested, probably more than any other athletes in the world at the time. EPO didn't exist then, and the 'cloud of suspicion' over Coe relates to his blood infection which many here assume was the result of blood doping. Never mind that blood doping was actually legal back then and Coe played a major role in having it banned (and recorded his best 1500m time after it was banned and at just under 30 years of age). Brits ran slower when EPO came on the scene. At some point around 1990, British middle-distance runners supposedly suddenly decided to abandon the cheating, just when the most powerful PED of all appeared and it was obvious dozens of African elites runners were megadosing on it. Maybe the election of Saint Tony Blair? But wasn't that 96?
But nothing would convince you types that Africans are more likely to cheat. Despite the lack of testing, the easy availability of EPO, the huge incentives to escape a lifetime of poverty, living in societies in which corruption, bribes, and cheating the norm, Africans today are no more likely to have doped than Europeans in the 1970s who were still laregely amateurs.
The ebony fetish is really strong with you guys.
I have an "ebony fetish" because I point out your logical fallacies? Sounds like projection. I certainly think poverty-stricken African runners are more likely to cheat, but that doesn't make your statement any less illogical.
rick sanchez wrote:
I wish the journalists would spill the beans. They have information but they do nothing to pursue it, then stuff will get buried and the sport suffers.
Spill it!
The IAAF are slow playing all these doping busts.
They are basically shooting themselves in the foot with doping headlines so they manage the ant-doping carefully.
Clean & Green? wrote:
You're saying then 80% are clean of the top elite body? Are you implying then that just lower-tier elites are doing most of the doping? Any reason why most of top elite body are clean?
My supposition is that among the top 30 in each event, throw out the Eastern Europeans, Turks and certain middle eastern programs and 4/5 or 3/4 will be legitimate. I don't hard data to back that up, though this says the study in 2011 estimated 29% had used a banned substance in the previous year. Remove Russia, Belarus, Turkey and that puts the number closer to 20%.
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/23/sports/research-finds-wide-doping-study-withheld.htmlI think there's a lot of cheating going on in road racing where you have so many opportunities for people outside the testing pool to make money. Doctors and coaches in East Africa "assisting" marathon runners who are talented but haven't gotten into the out of competition testing pool.
Coevett wrote:
The ebony fetish is really strong with you guys.
Yep! It's as a strong as the ivory fetish with others.
About the only thing as long and sordid as the history of doping in athletics is the history of "my guys are different."
Fandom is a powerful hallucinogenic.
Coevett wrote:
Coe, Ovett, Cram were tested, probably more than any other athletes in the world at the time.
Based on what? There was no random, out of competition testing until 1989. Blood doping was legal until 1986. I don't think that they used steroids or blood doped (though people have suggested it).
Coevett wrote:
the 'cloud of suspicion' over Coe relates to his blood infection which many here assume was the result of blood doping. Never mind that blood doping was actually legal back then and Coe played a major role in having it banned (and recorded his best 1500m time after it was banned and at just under 30 years of age).
How would they have tested for self-transfusions in 1986? The only reason Martti Vaino was caught was because he injected himself with blood that was taken from him while he was on steroids.
Coevett wrote:
Brits ran slower when EPO came on the scene. At some point around 1990, British middle-distance runners supposedly suddenly decided to abandon the cheating, just when the most powerful PED of all appeared and it was obvious dozens of African elites runners were megadosing on it. Maybe the election of Saint Tony Blair? But wasn't that 96?
Why shouldn't we suspect Tony Whiteman and John Mayock, who both ran their fastest 1500m in 1997? Rob Denmark set the 5k road record in 1996. They had no trouble running elite times when there was no EPO test. Or is that unfair to them?
Coevett wrote:
But nothing would convince you types that Africans are more likely to cheat.
Evidence would.
Coevett wrote:
Despite the lack of testing
John Ngugi was banned for refusing a test in 1993. It hasn't been a corruption-free process but don't write as if testers don't go to Africa.
Coevett wrote:
Africans today are no more likely to have doped than Europeans in the 1970s who were still laregely amateurs.
Why did the Finns dope? They used blood doping and steroids to win from 1970 to 1984. What for? Is Finland a corrupt culture?
Coevett wrote:
The ebony fetish is really strong with you guys.
Do you have an ebony fetish with sprinting? You said yourself that people of West African heritage make better sprinters.