I'm coached by John Starrett (Stazza) and his training's is nothing like Coach JS. His coaching is specific to each person he coaches. Coach JS uses HR (something about 120). Stazza uses feel. Stazza is Ireland's top marathon coach (that's not hard). Do you want to debate it?
So running fans, who have seen so much doping throughout the sport, throughout EVERY sport, are the ones who are guilty of "mental doping"?
Talk about blaming the victim.
I am going with 50% chance SM is doped, v. say, 90% for Kimetto's record, or 90% for the outlandish women's 10000 record. Great performance by Sondre, but we are living with our eyes wide open in 2017.
C'mon Renato. Your so called detailed explanation claims that Moen:
1) Moved to the Kenyan mountains
2) Lived simply
3) Ran more
4) Which let him recover better
5) Which let him run more at half-marathon and marathon race pace.
6) Which let him lower his marathon pr from 2:10 to a hair under 2:06
Living simply and training at altitude are unquestionably beneficial. A solid aerobic base is also essential for marathoners. Couple that plus good health and good conditions and no one would be shocked by a solid 2:08-2:09 from Moen on a fast course. But a negative split 2:05 high. C'mon man.
I'm not saying it was doping. The Vaporflys do seem to really help runners over the last miles of the marathon. I'm just saying it takes a lot more than a few months at altitude and some extra miles to go from national class to a major marathon champ.
Renato Canova wrote:
Again some doubt for something for me normal, when an athlete of good talent has continuity, motivation, tough and correct training, living (as Kenyan) in altitude for the most part of the year (223 days from the first of January).
The big performance of Moen, but especially the WAY he did, can clearly show two things :
1) White runners, with high talent (but not exceptional like many Kenyans and Ethiopians), if chose to be ATHLETES having a main focus only for some year in running, can be like the best African, and sometimes also better.
2) Clean runners, with high talent (but non exceptional like many Kenyans and Ethiopians), if chose to be ATHLETES having a main focus only for some year in running, can be at the top of the World, not depending their performance on the fact if are African or not.
Of course now there is some sceptic idiot who looks at doping as main reason of his improvement. Who know Moen (and my clear position) well know that he never used any supplement, also legal, because this is against our principles, and I think it's the best way for making the mind weak.
The big improvement of this year was very gradual, and now seems like an explosion only because there were more than 4 minutes between his previous marathon in Hannover and today, but we have to see at the time passed between them :
237 days, during which it's possible to build new situation, including a great increase of self confidence and personality.
In training, I already saw the potentiality for running 2:06, but what surprised also myself today is the interpretation of the race, and the personality he showed, attacking after 30 km, with 29'16" between 30 and 40 km and the last 2.195m still faster (for an average of 2'55" per km in the last 12.195m).
I will write, how already I did after his HM of Valencia in 59:48, his full plan between Valencia and Fukuoka (ALWAYS IN ALTITUDE).
I hope that this results, instead being considered connected with some doping, can bring people to think that the limits we put in our mind about the clean performances are not real, and depend not from the doping of the other athletes, but on the fact that NOBODY WANTS TO DO A CLEAR CHOICE OF LIFE DEDICATED AT THE ATHLETICS FOR A SHORT PART OF HIS LIFE, something Sondre did full time this year, with 223 days (till Fukuoka) in altitude, the most part alone, having focus in training, eating and resting only.
The quality of his training improved day after day. In January, it was for him difficult to run two following days between 3'45" and 3'50" per km, because his legs were stiff and tired after a normal workout. Today, he's not able running slower than 3'40", an sometimes I had to force him to run at regeneration speed, not faster the 3'45".
The increase of his aerobic base gave him the opportunity to have frequent sessions with high volume of km at HM speed (between 2'47" and 2'52" per km) and at Marathon speed (between 2'57" and 3'02" per km), and now these two different speeds are normal in the development of his training.
After this, we have to ask ourself : "Which are the real limits for one athlete of high but not exceptional talent, who has continuity in training, right modulation between hard sessions and recovery, big motivation, ability to grow mentally and as self confidence, AND DO EVERYTHING IN HIGH ALTITUDE ?
And, when we know it's possible this when white and clean, can we really believe that everybody running fast is doped, and EPO can give advantages for athletes REALLY well trained in altitude of 1 minute in 10000m and 4 minutes in Marathon ?
Do you think I can suppose Sondre could run under 2:02 assuming EPO ?
And somebody still has the courage to ask me "which proof you are that EPO doesn't work", continuing with the example of Lombard or Lance Armstrong, without understanding the difference from athletes at different level as talent, motivation and training (IN ALTITUDE) , or from runners and bikers ?
Clean your minds, start to believe in yourselves, and go in hard CLEAN training if are really interested in improving their performances.
I'm not saying he is or isn't on drugs, how would I know?
But...you sir certainly like to brag about yourself, a lot!
You're flat out saying that you are doing something so different, so extraordinary, so incredibly amazing that you and only you have a secret that no coach in the entire world has figured out, but you. Hard work, dedication and drive combined with ample training has been around forever.
So if this Moen ran for anybody else, he'd be nowhere close to where he is today. Sorry, the board and the brothers can buy it, but I'm not---thank you very much.
average joe speed wrote:
How does it? wrote:
So an unknown runner, medium talent, goes to Kenya for a few months and runs a 2:05:47??
This begs the question: Can any medium talent run 1:23-1:25 for the half?
I'd doesn't beg the question, it raises the question.
These two phrases mean entirely different things. Google it.
Jealous Paddy wrote:
I'm coached by John Starrett (Stazza) and his training's is nothing like Coach JS. His coaching is specific to each person he coaches. Coach JS uses HR (something about 120). Stazza uses feel. Stazza is Ireland's top marathon coach (that's not hard). Do you want to debate it?
I can also vouch for Stazza's amour propre; he would never stoop to plagiarism.
I took a look at this lad and he's coaching some good runners. He coaches Bryant Jensen (2:15 marathon) and second place in this year's Indianapolis marathon (OTQ already). He also coaches Riley Cook a 3.42 1500m runner and 2.16 marathon runner. Looks like he coaches a good number of OTQ guys and guys gunning for OTQ. A good group of women too, going for the OTQ.
Also, I think I got this right, he's taking some of his runners (he calls them Stablemates-funny) to his place in Iten for 6 weeks in January. Apparently a number of them are those going for the OTQ (male and female). Seems like a pretty decent coach to me. Nothin glike Coach JS on here.
Think I might contact him.
olyrun wrote:
"nerto" has got it right. Can more Americans run 2:05- 2:06, absolutely . Are they prepared to commit themselves body and soul like Moen did, absolutely not. American elite's are training hard but not hard enough. They would never make the commitments that Moen did. The U.S. problem is not lack of talent but lack of character.
It`s not a matter of commitment or lack of character. More like using the right method to reach the goal and keep consistency week by week, year by year. It`s not about training "hard", more like training smart. It`s not about "guessing" , more like knowing exactly where the runner is in the process to reach optimal individual performance. The marathon is 42195m and the runner just need speed and aerobic power to stand that distance......not less and not more.
COACH J.S å ä ö wrote:
garbage
JS, you are annoying. If you are going to post your deluded crap about being a coach to world class athletes (while you still have the time to spam LRC 6 hours a day using desperate tactics like fake names), please at least use your own thread. This thread is not about you.
You swoop in like a vulture and start kissing Renato's butt every time he posts, and it's obvious to anyone reading that you are acting like a little girl meeting her favorite boy band idol. It's a joke to everyone, including Renato. Then you start pulling the crap where you post as someone else, advertising how good of a coach you are.... on a thread that has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU.
Just go away, or Brojos please ban this spammer! Enough is enough!
I believe Steve Jones was better. Probably 2:05 flat in perfect race with pacers.
Debut in 2:08:05, 2:04 pace through 32k solo in his 2:07:13, 2:08 London with a pit stop for the bathroom.
I could easily see a 2:05 flat on some of these courses today from Jones, especially with his 27:47 10K speed. Until a non- African goes sub 2:05, Jonesy still #1 for me.
The negative splitting is the f*cking shoes!!!
Those doping allegations are as predictable as they are pathetic.
Everybody knows EPO does not work for the top runners born at latitude.
GET LOST wrote:
COACH J.S å ä ö wrote:
garbage
JS, you are annoying. If you are going to post your deluded crap about being a coach to world class athletes (while you still have the time to spam LRC 6 hours a day using desperate tactics like fake names), please at least use your own thread. This thread is not about you.
You swoop in like a vulture and start kissing Renato's butt every time he posts, and it's obvious to anyone reading that you are acting like a little girl meeting her favorite boy band idol. It's a joke to everyone, including Renato. Then you start pulling the crap where you post as someone else, advertising how good of a coach you are.... on a thread that has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU.
Just go away, or Brojos please ban this spammer! Enough is enough!
This "spammer" you call me predicted almost exactly the outcome of this race . The winner was Sondre Nordstad Moen
in 2.05.48 . The credit for his win and performance is dedicated to himself and his coach Canova. To me it looks out from what Canova write that the big difference, in Moen`s training before Canova and now with Canova , is the speed both at intervals and distance work. What you and others don`t know is that I contacted Moen two years ago and asked if he was interested in me coaching him with exact individual paces. He then said something like " I know how to train the best way. It`s just to look at the Kenyans and run like them. It`s no hokus pokus. ". On that training he ran 2.13.
nerato wrote:
All the answers are in Canova's post. Here's the nutshell version:
White Americans are mentally doped; they question all fast times because they don't know what it means to dedicate oneself to achieving a goal. They think they are working hard, but they really have no clue what it means to work hard. This white European is a model for westerners to emulate. 4 walls, 1 top, a pillow and 2 blankets: - that's all that's necessary. Throw out the smartphones, the heart rate monitors, the underwater treadmills, the cable TV, the processed food, the drugs, the alcohol, the defeatist mentality that faster runners are cheating. Thank you RC.
Okay, so a no-true-Scotsman. If someone tries to live rightously but gets fatigued or hurt, then they weren't actually committed. They just thought they were.
How does that explanation help?
Again, the data and examples are against healthy living as the only factor. You don't think the Chris Derricks of the world are living right? But he is 7 minutes slower than Moen. Or Ryan Vail, who Canova pegged himself as the future of US marathoning?
It is stupid to reduce the atgletes success to running faster and living right. Canova should give us a full answer if he gives us anything, not pander to a simplistic idea.
Remember me Stazza?
I'm Benny from the Bronx
Probably not Stazza as he just coaches a group of shite ultrarunners, general morons and a few gullible decent Mormon runners
Renato, do you have a sicence background? Since you claim EPO does not work. Last time I checked, it is used by actual physicians to treat various maladies.
Victor Alexander wrote:
rebound wrote:
He has dropped his marathon PR by over seven minutes since the beginning of the year. He has been chugging out 28-minute 10000s and 62-minute halfs for years and years, then.....POW.
Honestly, it really does look suspicious. 62.X for half marathons for 4 years. You train with Canova in Kenya for a year and bam, 59.X. Really? From a 2.12 marathon to a 2.05 in a year? I'm not saying he's not talented. I am saying his progression this year is insane. Unbelievably so, honestly.
This is fantastic! Looks like there is only two coaches in the world right now that can produce insane natural
results like this. Canova and coach js.
Querfeldein wrote:
Those doping allegations are as predictable as they are pathetic.
Everybody knows EPO does not work for the top runners born at latitude.
Dude, how many freaking screen names are you going to use to say the same thing over and over and over again? We get how you feel. Sheesh.
Trust me, I'm almost a dr. wrote:
Renato, do you have a science background? Since you claim EPO does not work. Last time I checked, it is used by actual physicians to treat various maladies.
He states that EPO doesn't work for TOP ATHELTES living and training at altitude. That's a big difference to ordinary people.
I have no knowledge about this, but personally I believe him. I think that some b+-guys can become a-guys with EPO, but if you have trained and lived at altitude for a long time, and you are naturally inclined for it, then you will have accumulated such a high level of hemoglobin that EPO won't have any benefits, at least in any practical terms. Eluid Kipchoge and David Rudisha are the best at their respective distances, and I really think they are clean, so I side with Canova.
Also, as he says, drugs do set limits on your mind that you need to take supplements to win or to beat other guys, and that mental self-degrading can be detrimental in top athleticism.