How come "epo time" marathon times were weak?

He's just coming to his senses. Now if only JO would do the same we'd all be on the same page.

High-Octane Doping wrote:

Aragon wrote:

I do think that a majority of athletes most likely gain some performance benefit from blood doping/rEPO.

C'mon man...that's not what you said on the plethora of posts you made in the Sumgong & Canova EPO threads! Your scientific position ...

He was just trolling along, poking fun at JO and Co. Wasn't that obvious?

money talks wrote:

[quote]Aragon wrote:

[quote]money talks wrote:

I'm glad you and a few others here are more open minded than most, at least there is some hope. Young athletes will still be exploited and given various drugs new and old. That is never going to change. It doesn't make them better athletes. The insistence that it does is what more of us should challenge.

So for blood there was (until gases came on the scene) two ways blood doping (infusions or reinfusions) and epo. We have evidence for each of the following events for the two types of doping. Feel free to add to this.

100m: we have evidence that Maurice Greene used epo, as did Marion Jones (and presumably Tim Montgomery and Dwayne Chambers).

200m: Greene and Jones again (epo).

400m: Saudi Arabian Al-Masrahi, Brazilian Teodoro, Kenyan Joyce Zakari (epo).

800m: Russian & other Eastern European women. Ramzi world champion (epo). Now if Pekka Vasala was blood doping as suspected he did go 1:44.

1500m/Mile: same for the 800m, Selsouli, Adil Kaouch, Turk Alptekin (epo). S. Kiplagat and Kiprop are suspected.

3000m: definitely Komen, Mourhit, older Boulami

3000mSC: Boulami, Jager has a 5 star rating (and he is not a hotel sadly). Kuba probably (blood doping).

5k: virtually every Moroccan male Boulami, Mourhit etc, Hassan Hirt, Russian women, Kisorio (epo). Viren, Vainio & Maaninka (blood doping)

10k: Leghzaoui, Russians, Kisorio, suspicion surrounds Rupp (epo).Viren, Vainio & Maaninka, Alberto Cova (blood doping)

1/2 Marathon: Barbi, Kisorio (epo).

Marathon: Harroufi, Barbi, Jeptoo, Sumgong and the woman stepping in epo puddles, Wilson Ekupe/Erupe???, Julia Muraga, Keitany is also suspected by the IAAF (epo), Cierpinski and possibly Yegorova (blood doping)

Walks: Schwazer (epo)

From this very basic summary, epo is used across all events by successful athletes. Whereas, blood doping appears to be more common in longer running events. There is some obvious ones that have been left out.

Aragon wrote:

How much blood reinfusion elevates performance was actually more researched in the 1980s and there are total of five double-blind placebo controlled studies on the effect of blood doping with time trial protocol from that decade with the following results from longest to shortest routes:

15 km: 5.3 %

10 km: 3.5 %

8 km: 2.5 % (5 mile)

5 km: 2.0 % (3 mile)

1.5 km: 1.7 %

The 15 km test lasted close to 50 minutes

not done on highly trained athletes then. If the others were similar, then they were measuring improvements among people who don't know how to run fast, which is greater limitation to improvement over the shorter distances than the longer. That is not the case with elites.

Just to clarify the issue.

In the spirit of the title of the thread, I provided some armchair/understudied theories why rEPO could be beneficial at efforts of longer duration (glycogen sparing, enhanced thermoregulation, improved mood) and pointed out that scientific literature backs up the claim that submaximal heart rate is lower with elevated hematocrit. From the framework of existing studies with non-elite athletes, the science doesn't either back up the claim made by bad wigins that elevated hematocrit is more beneficial at efforts of shorter duration, quite to the contrary.

My "some performance benefit"-statement isn't a retraction of my earlier positions at all. If you read the entire paragraph, the context is to emphasize that one shouldn't take me referring to any study as me thinking that I am convinced that blood doping "works" enormously. In fact, I specifically state that unlike bad wigins, I don't believe that the performance enhancing effect of blood doping is "enormous", just the opposite:

There is no change of mind and one don't even have go to Sumgong/Savinova - threads to find where I've stated that my opinion is that rEPO/blood doping gives benefits only a fraction of what the studies claim, because I wrote the following just three days ago in this thread:

Excellent list 👍(though I'm sure rekrunner will present some criticism...no surprises there. Lol).

On the 800 with women, I would mention Jolanda Ceplak (EPO) who holds the 18th fastest time on record (1:55.19). In a distance where, historically, steriods & T have been effective PEDs, we have an EPO user running a very fast time. Maybe she was also using roids or T, but we don't know. What we do know for certain is that she holds the 18th fastest time ever and tested positive for EPO:

There is no change of mind and one don't even have go to Sumgong/Savinova - threads to find where I've stated that my opinion is that rEPO/blood doping gives benefits only a fraction of what the studies claim, because I wrote the following just three days ago in this thread:

Spoken like a true "politician." Lol.

As the poster asked; what is your background & credentials? Is it listed on your site:

Inquiry minds want to know wrote:

As the poster asked; what is your background & credentials?

Just out of principle I shouldn't even address the issue, because the LR is full of people making even more bombastic allegations than me with far less credentials nor any degree on exercise physiology. Perhaps out of courtesy and perhaps because I always refer to original source material to back up my claims and not to my "omniscient authority", I'll give a few words about my background.

On academic level, I have a degree on computer sciences and I've finished several courses of political history in the local university (equivalent only roughly a year of "real" studying). My interest in blood doping is not related to my education but only about interest in exercising and being from Finland which is alleged to have been the hotbed of transfusions from late 1960s onward.

On issue of exercise physiology, my knowledge is based only in reading a few popular books (Ã…strand, McArdle etc), decent amount of vaguely connected articles from scientific journals, and occasionally discussing and corresponding about the issue with exercise physiologists, journalists etc.

On blood doping I've read every published study on the issue from 1945 until 1989 except one not easily available (Bell et al, 1976), I even obtained one unpublished dissertation from the United States. In addition I've gone through huge amount of newspapers, the relevant archives of the Finnish Athletics Association, Finnish Ski Federation and the National Olympic Committee and copied up to 10,000 pages of material from microfilms and from the paper files. I should emphasize that even when I have a decent knowledge on the matter and some insider insights, even with that amount of material and a few good connections, I am not really "in-the-know" in the blood doping issue.

The above is not same as a degree in exercise physiology / sports medicine, but I can pretty much claim that I have above average knowledge on the issue, particularly regarding the blood doping/rEPO issue. I even occasionally mention not wanting to debate some issues due to lack of knowledge and I always avoid cherrypicking random studies from PubMED to back up my arguments particularly if I know next to nothing about a certain sub-issue or about how a study falls into the body of other literature on the same subject matter.

And just for the record, while I have mentioned my blog (I think twice) I haven't linked ever to my blog here to get traffic as only one essay has been translated into English, and Finnish is barely readable even with the help of Google Translate for 99.999 % of LR-readers.

Aragon wrote:

From the framework of existing studies with non-elite athletes, the science doesn't either back up the claim made by bad wigins that elevated hematocrit is more beneficial at efforts of shorter duration, quite to the contrary.

I never used the word "hematocrit." It is a source of endless baloney. In a highly trained athlete it tends to be lower because overall blood volume rises.

You're also trying to shift the burden - you trotted out those studies (without links) to support your claim that benefits are higher at longer distances. Their supposed failure to "back up" my assertion that benefits are highest at mid-distance is an absence-of-evidence fallacy - it's not evidence of absence.

It doesn't make sense for extra RBC's to be more useful when oxygen use is low than when it is maximal - therefore it is an extraordinary claim, and requires extraordinary evidence. The burden of proof is on you. You've alluded to much but provided none.

But here is some simple evidence to the contrary: All men's mid-d track world records except 800 meters were set during the "epo era" before effective testing, whereas road 10k, 15k, 20k, half marathon and marathon were all set during the bio passport era. How are these road athletes able to beat their epo-addled forebears while the mid-D records are now untouchable, if epo is so much more effective at distance?

More likely the longer distances simply have more room for improvement, more things critical to good performance that don't matter so much at mid-D. Heat management and efficient form, body weight and composition, even higher blood volume. Getting a blood bag before a distance race may give a boost merely from extra fluid and minerals, just like Rupp's bags of saline. One can't compare an improvement at one distance to an improvement over another, or say just how much of said improvement was due to extra RBC's as opposed to some unknown factor. But it is more plausible to attribute improvements to RBC's at distances where oxygen use is high because that is what RBC's deliver.

As noted the EPO addled marathon era was made up of guys who couldn't quite cut it on the track. The basic talent level was lower then.

EPO still jacked those guys up.

It helps at ALL distances and it shouldn't be hard to understand why.

Even at lower effort levels less effort is needed just to breathe when doped to the gills.

Just the act of respiration is very energy costly. It's not just about the legs moving.

So for blood there was (until gases came on the scene) two ways blood doping (infusions or reinfusions) and epo. We have evidence for each of the following events for the two types of doping. Feel free to add to this.

100m: we have evidence that Maurice Greene used epo, as did Marion Jones, Michelle Collins (and presumably Tim Montgomery and Dwayne Chambers).

200m: Greene and Jones again, Bruno de Barros, Michelle Collins (epo).

400m: Saudi Arabian Al-Masrahi, Brazilian Teodoro, Kenyan Joyce Zakari (epo).

800m: Russian & other Eastern European women. Ramzi world champion, Ceplak, Hind Dehiba (epo). Now if Pekka Vasala was blood doping as suspected he did go 1:44.

1500m/Mile: same for the 800m, Selsouli, Adil Kaouch, Turk Cakir Alptekin, Balut, Fouad Chouki, Hind Dehiba (epo). S. Kiplagat and Kiprop are suspected.

3000m: definitely Komen, Mourhit, older Boulami, Baday, Bekele Defar (epo)

3000mSC: Boulami, Blanco, Denis, Hamid Enzzine (epo), Jager has a 5 star rating (and he is not a hotel sadly). Kuha probably (blood doping).

5k: virtually every Moroccan male Boulami, Mourhit etc, Hassan Hirt, Russian women, Kisorio, Ahmed Baday, Bekele Defar, Alberto Garcia (epo). Viren, Vainio & Maaninka (blood doping)

10k: Leghzaoui, Russians, Kisorio, suspicion surrounds Rupp (epo).Viren, Vainio & Maaninka, Alberto Cova (blood doping)

1/2 Marathon: Barbi, Kisorio, Chepchumba, di Cecco, Martin Fagan (epo).

Marathon: Shobukhova, Harroufi, Barbi, Bouramdame, Jeptoo, Sumgong and the woman stepping in epo puddles, Wilson Erupe, Julia Muraga, di Cecco, Shitaye Gemechu, Keitany is also suspected by the IAAF (epo), Cierpinski and possibly Yegorova (blood doping)

Walks: Schwazer, Russians (epo),

Long Jump: Berrabah (epo)

Add as you wish.

So for blood there was (until gases came on the scene) two ways blood doping (infusions or reinfusions) and epo. We have evidence for each of the following events for the two types of doping. Feel free to add to this.

100m: we have evidence that Maurice Greene used epo, as did Marion Jones, Michelle Collins, Kelli White (and presumably Tim Montgomery and Dwayne Chambers).

200m: Greene and Jones again, Bruno de Barros, Michelle Collins (epo).

400m: Saudi Arabian Al-Masrahi, Brazilian Teodoro, Kenyan Joyce Zakari, Alvin Harrison, Antonio Pettigrew, Jerome Young (epo).

800m: Russian & other Eastern European women. Ramzi world champion, Ceplak, liliana popescu, Hind Dehiba, Vanja Perisic (epo). Now if Pekka Vasala was blood doping as suspected he did go 1:44. Stephanie Graf was banned for blood doping (retrospectively after she retired).

1500m/Mile: same for the 800m, Selsouli, Adil Kaouch, Turk Cakir Alptekin, Balut, Fouad Chouki, Hind Dehiba, Christina Vasiloiu, Hachlaf (epo). S. Kiplagat and Kiprop are suspected.

3000m: definitely Komen, Mourhit, older Boulami, Baday, Bekele Defar, Sergio Sanchez (epo)

3000mSC: Boulami, Blanco, Denis, Hamid Enzzine, Hachlaf, Yin Anna, Ali Kamal, Svitlana Schmidt, Russians (epo), Jager has a 5 star rating (and he is not a hotel sadly). Kuha probably (blood doping).

5k: virtually every Moroccan male Boulami, Mourhit etc, Hassan Hirt, Russian women, Kisorio, Ahmed Baday, Sergio Sanchez, Bekele Defar, Susanne Pumper, Alberto Garcia, Noujani, Khalid Zoubaa (epo). Viren, Vainio & Maaninka (blood doping)

10k: Leghzaoui, Russians, Kisorio, Cathal Lombard, Helena Javornik, Amaia Piedra, Simone da Silva, Laila Traby (epo), suspicion surrounds Rupp (epo???).Viren, Vainio & Maaninka, Alberto Cova (blood doping)

1/2 Marathon: Barbi, Kisorio, Chepchumba, Antonello Petrei, di Cecco, Martin Fagan, José Rocha, Fernando Silva (epo).

Marathon: Abraham Kiprotich, Shobukhova, Ronald Rutto, Harroufi, Barbi, Bouramdame, Jeptoo, Sumgong and the woman stepping in epo puddles, Wilson Erupe, Julia Muraga, di Cecco, Shitaye Gemechu, Jeremias Saloj, Hunter-Galvin, Lisa Nemec, Eddy Hellebuyck, Kuma, Yu-Fang, (epo), Keitany is also suspected by the IAAF (epo), Cierpinski and possibly Yegorova (blood doping)

Walks: Schwazer, Kozhakhmetova, Ebrahim Rahimian, Athanasia Tsoumeleka, Song Hongjuan, Tysse, Gustafsson, Russians (epo),

Long Jump: Berrabah (epo)

We have alot more knowledge about who has (stupidly) failed epo, far less than blood doping.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

...

suspicion surrounds Rupp (epo).Viren, Vainio & Maaninka, Alberto Cova (blood doping)

...

Add as you wish.

Blood doping suspicion surrounds everyone who went beyond the off-score threshold in the ABP, and that's putting it mildly, for several EPO drug cheats stayed within the "legal" limits because they are so extremely generous.

This includes 1500 Olympic champ Centro, current 5000/10000 goat Farah, and marathon record holder Radcliffe (in part) from the EPO era (so much for ""epo time" marathon times were weak").

casual obsever wrote:

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

...

suspicion surrounds Rupp (epo).Viren, Vainio & Maaninka, Alberto Cova (blood doping)

...

Add as you wish.

Blood doping suspicion surrounds everyone who went beyond the off-score threshold in the ABP, and that's putting it mildly, for several EPO drug cheats stayed within the "legal" limits because they are so extremely generous.

This includes 1500 Olympic champ Centro, current 5000/10000 goat Farah, and marathon record holder Radcliffe (in part) from the EPO era (so much for ""epo time" marathon times were weak").

Hi, yeah the IAAF are rather vague on declaring whether the passport violations are epo or simple blood infusions (which I suspect is more common than realized) or perhaps I'm a terrible reader. I wanted to show above that epo is used by long and short. Blood doping/infusions are more of an endurance phenomenon, obviously, but there is a reason both are used because both work (here comes rekrunner). The two cases that surprised me was the long jumper (8.40m), and Stephanie Graf appears to have been caught years later having done blood infusions, she was a 400m-type 800m runner. (Looks like I bumped the 'post' button by mistake 😄).

By "elevated" I referred to artificially "elevated" hematocrit and didn't make the claim that there is any correlation between naturally high hematocrit and performance. I don't think there is nor implied that you hold that position.

My position has always been that the benefit is overstated at all distances, so I don't even necessarily hold the opinion one way or another where rEPO gives the largest improvement, but just pointed out some possible mechanism to explain the possible benefit at longer distances. While the subject is understudied, some physiologists have have reviewed the literature and even taken a look on the submaximal mechanism. In fact you don't have to go further than the American College of Sports Medicine position stand on blood doping coauthored by a group of exercise physiologist among them Michael Joyner, Lawrence Spriet and Michael N. Sawka, of whom two latter have authored blood doping studies and know the subject decently well:

When you add the five studies, it is at least a plausible claim that there are mechanisms that make the submaximal exercise easier at least with recreational athletes. Here are the references to the studies from 15 km to 1500 m in descending order, I think that at least 3 are scanned PDF-files freely available and easily accessible through Google.

- Berglund B et al: "Effect of reinfusion of autoloflous blood on exercise performance in cross-country skiers", Int J Sports Med 1987, 8, 231-233

- Brien AJ et al: "The effects of red blood cell infusion on 10km race time", JAMA 1987, 257, 2761-2765

- Williams MH et al. "The effect of induced erythrocythemia upon 5-mile treamill run time", Med Sci Sports Exerc 1981, 13, 169-175

- Goforth HW et al: "Effect of induced erythrocythemia on aerobic capacity, ventilatory threshold and run performance", Naval Health Reseach Center, Report No 99-14

- Brien AJ et al: "The effects of an autologous infusion of 400 ml red blood cells on selected haematological parameters and 1,500 m race time in highly trained runners", Bahrain Medical Bulletin April 1989, 11, 6-16

On general level I totally agree. But the relative importance of any "unknown factors" in these research papers is minimized by the double blind protocol, so the only variable is the added RBCs. Thus the differences between the experimental group and the control group can be explained by the added RBCs regardless of the underlying mechanism. Even when there are some differences in the protocols, if the studies point to the conclusion exactly the opposite what you insisted, then it should raise questions.

This is matter of endless debate what even caused the "crazy years" from mid-1990s onward. The rEPO hypothesis is at least seemingly a plausible one (Ross Tucker seems to vouch for it), but it is equally interesting that the euphoric and almost unbelieveable times from late 1990s from 800m to 10000m are limited to a few top runners, because if you look at world list 20th, the time is essentially flat from mid-1990s until today. One explanation to explain fall of top perormances could be that the incentives to try to break world records are lower, because they are considered unbreakable (à la Ron Clarke's 27:39.4 which lasted seven years despite the introduction of synthetic tracks). This would still leave the un-improvement of the 20th unexplained as one could expect some natural progression.

If someone has Renato Canova's take on the issue, I'd be interested to know.

If an American was offered a drug that would likely get him from the level of a scholarship athlete in NCAA Basketball but not going to the NBA -> NBA draft level, what do you think would be the result? Track and Field / Marathons are not nearly this lucrative.

That is the downfall of all the comparisons between the 1st world athletes and the 2nd/3rd world athletes. Winning $100k in a marathon is life changing money for a Kenyan and is comparable to an American winning several Million. To an American, $100k is a decent year, but in no way gets him to retirement unless he can to that for 20+ years, which will not happen in running. So it is just not worth the risk of doping for most 1st world athletes. Since this amount of money is life changing in the 2nd/3rd world, they will take the risk to their health and possible reputation downfall if caught. Often they get to keep the prize money anyway. In addition, there are very few out of competition tests for 2nd/3rd world athletes, so they can train on heavy PEDs and not get caught. Not so in 1st world.

Of course it still takes hard work and great talent to be the best in the world. But Doing all the training without breaking down (via PEDs) is a tremendous advantage come race day. You don't need the drugs on race day if you've done the training (with or without PEDs). But PEDs allow athletes to train harder and therefore make faster adaptations than are possible without.

ALittleCommonSense wrote:

Of course it still takes hard work and great talent to be the best in the world. But Doing all the training without breaking down (via PEDs) is a tremendous advantage come race day. You don't need the drugs on race day if you've done the training (with or without PEDs). But PEDs allow athletes to train harder and therefore make faster adaptations than are possible without.

That's an understatement! PEDs allow athletes to increase training volume above & beyond what they could ever do clean. 80 mile weeks become 120 mile weeks, once a week speed sessions become twice a week sessions, and so on. Overuse injuries are reduce, and when an injury is sustained, recovery time is much quicker. PEDs allow athletes to push through barriers and achieve results they couldn't have accomplish clean. All this with their usual line of BS: smarter training, changed coaches, better nutrition, yoga classes, aerodynamic apparel, and so forth 😅.

Down with dopers!!!

My position is to call what we know, knowledge. In the realm of science, mathematics, and law, we start with evidence, observations, proofs, and logic as bases for arguments and conclusions.Your position is to wishfully look at what we don't know, about dopers who were not caught, assuming that some of them likely set world record times in the epo era, and suggesting that this could form a valid basis or otherwise be convincing or conclusive. This is a circular argument, assuming the conclusion, "begging the question".My position is to call this hypothesis, allegation, mythology, and religion, depending on how far you've drawn conclusions. The next step (your claim, your burden) is to collect evidence of the missing link between EPO and world record times, to at least establish a strong correlation. In cycling we can do this, but not in distance running. This is where we are today.When we look at what we know, the performances of athletes, and which ones have been "clearly" linked to doping (e.g using the loose standard we use for cycling), in all distance running events over two decades, we can only find one example of a world record record linked to EPO -- Boulami. And this one doesn't look "untouchable" -- three others have come close to the record, two after the epo era.

Inquiry minds want to know wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

...

While we do find fast times in the 90's and 00's, these times have not been clearly linked to EPO....

Your position makes no sense. Are you postulating that the athletes "busted" for EPO were the only ones using it? IOW, a 100% detection rate? And how would you know that the "fast times in the 90's and 00's" are not linked to EPO or blood doping? Just because they never tested positive nor were involved in a blood doping scandal? If you look at the statistically estimates of PED users compared to the actual athletes testing positive or sanctioned, the vast majority will never get caught during their careers. The detection rates with anti-doping is very low, and in many cases they get lucky with a careless athlete who failed the "doping IQ test"...nothing new there.

I'm not sure what this list is supposed to represent. The OP talked about untouchable world record times from the epo era, and I see many athletes on this list nowhere near world records.I think I would also disagree with much of the quality of evidence "we have" that permits an athlete to make it on your list (depending on what your list is supposed to represent). For example Kisorio was sanctioned for steroids, not EPO or blood infusions.I think I would also disagree with any suggestion that this list could be evidence that "it works". This lengthy list, consistent with the *beliefs* of many letsrun posters, represents a widespread *belief* that "it works".Without jumping in the merits of each name, I'm curious what "evidence we have" that makes you say "definitely Komen".

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

So for blood there was (until gases came on the scene) two ways blood doping (infusions or reinfusions) and epo. We have evidence for each of the following events for the two types of doping. Feel free to add to this.

...

We have alot more knowledge about who has (stupidly) failed epo, far less than blood doping.