Can anyone explain Obiri's fourth place?

Guess what again, I think? wrote:

scorpion_runner wrote:

Guess what? Vivian ran that same race, and she ran 29:32, just missing going under 29:30 herself. Guess what again? Vivian had to run that 5000m race after running the 10000m race, too Guess what one more time? Vivian destroyed Ayana on tired legs, just like ayana was on SO CALLED TIRED LEGS.

Guess what again? Vivian didn't show up this year and Ayana won the 10k AGAIN, on so called tired legs, and then got silver in the 5k AGAIN, on so called tired legs. TWO GOLDS, TWO SILVERS!

STOP WITH THE EXCUSES, AGAIN AND AGAIN!

Which TWO GOLDS, TWO SILVERS you are talking about? You must have been asleep the last two years and have no idea what everyone is talking about! FYI, Ayana only has in her collection 1 GOLD, 1 SILVER and 1 BRONZE. Nothing more.

If you take into consideration the Beijing worlds, the Rio Olympics and the London worlds Ayana actually has three golds, one silver and one bronze. The discussion here relates to her documented inability to win her second race in any major world championship.

To be honest the argument regarding who is the "best" 5000m runner in the world will have to wait until the following few years have transpired. Obiri has publicly stated she is targeting the 5000m world record next year - Hopefully Ayana picks up the challenge and they battle it out.

The 2018 season is the first for two years that doesnt contain a major international championship, therefore the athletes will be able to focus purely on record hunting and training for specific events. Obiri and Ayana are very different runners. Almaz glides over the ground with great rhythm and grace, whereas Hellen brutalizes the track and looks all power and purpose. For this reason alone I personally have doubts that obiri could consistently challenge Almaz over the 10000 if she stepped up. Obiri is much more robust physically than Ayana and has a far broader ability over the shorter to middle distances than Ayana. But Ayana is a perfect machine for what she does- churning out a fast rhythmic pace for long periods.

What is undeniable is the massive impact Almaz has had on the distance events since she burst onto the scene in 2015. She has revolutionized the way races are run, I for one will ensure I am front and centre to watch any race she runs - over and above any other athlete in the world right now.

Mow your lawn wrote:

Which TWO GOLDS, TWO SILVERS you are talking about? You must have been asleep the last two years and have no idea what everyone is talking about! FYI, Ayana only has in her collection 1 GOLD, 1 SILVER and 1 BRONZE. Nothing more.

Wrong again.

Ayana won the 10000 at Rio a year ago in the new world record of 29:17, then again this year, i.e. 2 golds in the 10000 meters, plus her medals in the 5ks.

hill run wrote:

If you take into consideration the Beijing worlds, the Rio Olympics and the London worlds Ayana actually has three golds, one silver and one bronze.

Additionally, her 29:17 10k world record is equivalent to a 14:03 for 5000 meters.

but why wrote:

is there anything to the idea that 3000m is at the limit of almost completely anaerobic but 5000m most definitely requires aerobic?

she is more efficient aerobically?

I don't think fast vs slow twitch comes into play at either distance though

The 3000m is almost completely anaerobic?

Wow, these girls sure are good at holding their breath. Should take up free diving.

Yes and that's the key issue many focus on. People analyse the amazing 3 & 5k splits she runs within her 10k races and extrapolate as to what that is "worth" in terms of a 5k race. Using trackbot etc is a useful General tool for sub elite runners but doesn't cater for the unique styles and peculiarities of super elites.

Although Almaz is a front runner for at least 50% of the duration of her races, she generally starts off with the pack for at least the first 2km of championship races. It's only after this that she breaks out and runs amazing splits.

My theory is although she is renown as a front runner, she requires a little time to gain the rhythm and fluidity which enable her to then destroy the field. Once this has been established and the machine is fully warmed and primed then bang she is off and then produces mind boggling splits.

However if you look at her record attempts at the 5 in 2016 she has had a pacer take her out over the first 3k and I've noticed she fades more quickly (by her amazing standards) if she is required to start the race with a hiss and a roar.

Last year in Rome she required a 70 second last few laps to break the record, but she failed. It was a mighty effort but no cigar. For this reason I don't think predictions of time from her other event have huge relevance on her 5km ability

Late blooming athletes often have a short stretch in which they are mistaken for a freakish talent, and then they logically level off.

I'm not saying that's guaranteed to happen here, but I wouldn't be surprised in the least.

That's why I never got caught up on the Arrogate obsession on horse racing message boards. Just the opposite. I warned that it was asinine to subjectively place him above American Pharoah, a horse that was terrific at an early age and continued to prove it. Those are the true freaks. With later blooming talents like Arrogate or Obiri you always have to be skeptical because they can come crashing back down at any time.

Obviously there are occasional exceptions, like Mo Farah. Big deal. I'm a huge Farah fan but no chance I'm going to reconsider a big picture perspective based on one example. As always, I'm trying to identify the easy method to be correct more often than not, instead of frantically using subjectivity to differentiate between this example and that example. If you try to win every decision that's an easy way to fall well shy of 50% and drive yourself nuts in the process.

No thank you. I have a lifelong logical distrust of late bloomers and that is not fragile or subject to reconsideration.

Does Ayana have anymore races this year?

I don't think Almaz will run again this season. Reports were that after the 10000 in London she slightly aggravated an injury that had prevented her competing so far this year. In her post 5000 interview she said as much and described she was running through the pain barrier in the heats and final of the 5000.

Given that she is not leading, or in contention for any diamond league prize money having run no races this year I would be very surprised if she ran the 5 at the Brussels meet.

Thanks for the update.

Do you know what the injury is?

From online discussions I have had with contacts close to Almaz I believe she had a calf injury, but I must stress I cannot absolutely verify this, I am a Facebook friend of her husband Soresa Fida, but have never asked him directly purely because I do not know him in person.

I did send my best wishes to both him and Almaz weeks before the world champs started and he responded with "don't worry Almaz will have a good performance"

Hill run wrote:

From online discussions I have had with contacts close to Almaz I believe she had a calf injury, but I must stress I cannot absolutely verify this, I am a Facebook friend of her husband Soresa Fida, but have never asked him directly purely because I do not know him in person.

I did send my best wishes to both him and Almaz weeks before the world champs started and he responded with "don't worry Almaz will have a good performance"

You must be gullible on another scale to believe that crap. Do us a favour, next time ask her drug mule hubby what's best: CERA, Xenon gas or a plain old blood transfusion?

Ok that's cool, I defend your right to hold that opinion. Many share your scepticism of her performances, I'm just not one of them. To me all the social media mud slinging towards Almaz simply highlights to me that she is a once in a lifetime gift to women's distance running.

The funny thing is chemical assistance doesn't explain her mind blowing biomechanics and running form. I've posted previously that even folk with no background or interest in running can watch her move and immediately realise they are looking at something extra special.

To bag Almaz on her individual performance is in my view a very one dimensional reaction. Regrettably the fact she speaks very poor English, Therefore cannot speak eloquently (or at all) to the western media and is also very shy and retiring off the track, seems to lend itself to the general mystique and suspicion in the eyes of many media saturated westerners.

To me she is simply a great talent who has broken the mould as to how distance events can be run. I watch her performances with admiration not disbelief. Maybe I would think differently if she ran with the pack and then unleashed a final 800 in 1.50 to win, that would be unbelievable. But nothing she does within a race is beyond credibility as far as I am concerned. She runs at a higher pace for longer than her competitors, but interestingly, if you were to analyse who attains the highest top speed within her races, it would never be Almaz herself.

But hey, you have your opinion and I will never shoot you down for it. My "gut" tells me differently, but I would never try and convince others to share my belief - only explain why I come to believe what I do

but why wrote:

is there anything to the idea that 3000m is at the limit of almost completely anaerobic but 5000m most definitely requires aerobic?

she is more efficient aerobically?

I don't think fast vs slow twitch comes into play at either distance though

Running 3k is used to determine VO2Max paces typically, but that doesn't mean it's an entirely anaerobic effort. I thought the upper limit of anaerobic efforts was something like 90 seconds. This is why for even an 800m race you want to have endurance training. Your logic still stands, though, that there is enough of a difference between 3k and 5k that your type of training could make a significant difference in how you perform between the two.

Something else to consider is heart rate, which during a 5k can still be as high as 97% of maximum heart rate. That doesn't drop much until half marathon or longer. So while 3k and 5k are very different in terms of time you've run beyond what's possible to do anaerobic, both runs are still done quite close to maximum heart rate.

[quote]Hill run wrote:

From online discussions I have had with contacts close to Almaz I believe she had a calf injury, but I must stress I cannot absolutely verify this, I am a Facebook friend of her husband Soresa Fida, but have never asked him directly purely because I do not know him in person.

I did send my best wishes to both him and Almaz weeks before the world champs started and he responded with "don't worry Almaz will have a good performance"[/quote

Thanks for the news. I hope she is injury free very soon.

Sore Calf my Ar5e wrote:

Hill run wrote:

From online discussions I have had with contacts close to Almaz I believe she had a calf injury, but I must stress I cannot absolutely verify this, I am a Facebook friend of her husband Soresa Fida, but have never asked him directly purely because I do not know him in person.

I did send my best wishes to both him and Almaz weeks before the world champs started and he responded with "don't worry Almaz will have a good performance"

You must be gullible on another scale to believe that crap. Do us a favour, next time ask her drug mule hubby what's best: CERA, Xenon gas or a plain old blood transfusion?

It is likely it is some sort of gas for short term enhancement. CERA and blood doping would last longer.