Road Racing and Training Thread- Week Ending July 23, 2017

Thanks, OR. It's a mixed bag, following a training plan like this. I don't have to make up my own workouts, but then there's the "oh, man, I have to do that?" -- best to get it done in the morning. I have my first set of cruise intervals tomorrow. 6 miles at "T" pace (5:59 for me), with each mile terminated with a 1-minute easy jog. Never done anything like that before. Should be interesting.

You are welcome, team 1.

I had that EXACT feeling when I used the structured/canned approach--I would say to myself the same thing: "Oh man, I have to do that?" That, in and of itself, was bad enough. The mental pressure was awful.

If it was easy, anyone could do it!

Looks like a really strong workout to me. You were pretty much dead on your desired peace despite adverse conditions and a little bit of a down stretch coming into the work out.

And while I suspect that 7200 m worth of intervals is appropriate given your overall volume of running, it is still a damn big work out (compare to my 4800m worth of 1200s last week). So the fact that you pretty much hit the desired times with that much volume speaks well to your fitness.

And this is random and anecdotal, but for some reason, I have struggled many times with 1200m workouts. It seems that out of the workouts I remember having to quit, most often 1200s are the ones.

Sounds like you nailed it to me. Can't be expected to hit even grade, ideal weather splits in the Rockies in July. Unrealistic expectations. You got the work in.

Nailed it again. Maybe even a little too fast. Can't be upset about 80 if you don't get upset about 69. 74s average (2 Vdot numbers faster than your target), finished faster than you started. Killer workout.

Nailed it. Struggling is not 1 rep outside of +/- 1, Struggling is not finishing the workout. You killed it on a nasty weather day. You're too hard on yourself again.

Agreed. When it gets tough on race day remember this week, tell yourself "I do hard things" and make it happen.

OR - Please stop saying structured workouts are impossible until the day you actually run an easy run easy.

Thanks, Smoove. That does make me feel better. Switching from self-coached to this Daniels plan has certainly introduced a lot of tough workouts. From threads on this site it seems that people share the "this is tough" sentiment, especially from Phase III... I wonder how much of that is the abundance of longer "I"-paced interval workouts like this one. The extra interval distance is new (I've always done closer to 4800m as well). I'm probably not keeping up the weekly volume for this plan, but still doing the full workouts, or trying to. Overall I'm hoping this translates to some big performances in races coming up. I agree about the tough 1200 distance. I always hated those in HS, too.

Side story about the workout: after I first read the workout and recollected it, I had it in my mind that it was a 300m jog rest rather than a 3 minute jog rest, and I had a brief mental anguish over stopping at the end of the turn for half the intervals...

Also Daniel's runsmart calculator predicts 10s/mile slow down for a 15:54 5ker when the temp is 80. Humidity has the same effect as high temp because your body can't evaporate sweat to cool down. Your 76s can probably be 78s easily this time of year for 400m.

I would definitely suggest you consider capping your interval volume at the greater of 5000m or 8% of your weekly mileage. The extra volume is great, but the cost on your body is an awfully high one when you are writing the check with lower volume than the plan otherwise anticipates.

The vo2max stuff is just hard - especially as we mature into our peak manhood years (which are different than our peak running years, or so I am trying to convince myself and others). But what really amazes me is how hard it is on workout days, but how relatively easy it feels on race day.

For the first 2000-2400 meters it is no sweat,. Then it feels kind of tough until 3200m or so for me. Then it is all about mentally breaking the race up into really small, digestible chunks ("I will ease up just a touch after the next stoplight . . .I can keep it going until the next turn . . . I will wait to back off until after this group of specatators . . ..") after that because it is hell at that point. Yet we make it through 5000m without a break at the same pace we struggled to do 1200m repeats at a week earlier.

outsiderunner wrote:

I had that EXACT feeling when I used the structured/canned approach--I would say to myself the same thing: "Oh man, I have to do that?" That, in and of itself, was bad enough. The mental pressure was awful.

OR, we were doing so well, and now we are back to this!!! I kid, but I do think it is something worth discussing, because you are not alone in your feelings regarding structured training.

I think this viewpoint reflects the feelings that folks who look at the plans, but don't digest the text from his book often have. If you really digest the information in the book, you can adjust any one of the workouts in that plan on the fly if you are having an off day, and get the vast majority of the intended benefit.

Have a 20 minute tempo run on the calendar, but all of a sudden, you are struggling a bit? Break it up into four 5 minute cruise intervals with a minute rest. The rest bouts will make the workout more manageable. Or slow your pace down using the Pledge of Allegiance test to ensure that you are exerting the appropriate perceived effort.

Have mile repeats at interval pace on the calendar, but not feeling up to snuff? Move the workout from Tuesday to Wednesday. Change the 4 x 1600m intervals w/4:00 rest into 6 x 1000m intervals with 3:00 rest. The physiological benefit is essentially the same, and all you lose out on is the mental benefit of being forced to fight through discomfort for extended periods and the added benefit of locking into pace during discomfort. Not something that you want to do every time you have 1600m intervals, but something that you can do as needed.

Structured is not canned. Structured is not inflexible. Structured is guided. Structured is purposeful.

The difference in how some view this approach and how I view it can be described by this anecdote.

Let's say you need to get crosstown to get to a business function at 5:00 pm.

Your view is that a structured plan means that you take out an old atlas and write down directions using the major thoroughfares and leave at 4:30 and follow those directions to your location. Sometimes you hit heavy traffic and you cannot make it to your destination on time.

I view a structured approach as meaning that you consider in advance what alternative routes you might want to take in case their is traffic, and then adjust your route based on traffic conditions that develop during your commute. You also consider whether to leave at 4:00 instead of 4:30 so that you can have plenty of time to get to your destination even if there is traffic.

This is not at all an attack on your or on anyone else. It is meant to dispel what I believe to be some misconceptions about a structured approach to training.

Lurker of this thread, just wanted to say that Smoove LOVES jerking himself off to all of his "knowledge" as a coach even though he basically just translates Daniels books and tries to pass it off as coaching advice

DSP, Thanks. I really needed this today. I had a birdie in my ear a couple weeks ago telling me it was all downhill from 41, a wet blanket on my perception of personal progress, and then I had a perception of not being able to hit my workout times. I always like to nail and kill my workouts, hitting the target and getting faster through the workout. I was able to do that with the 400s (those are just fun) but not today with the 1200s. I'll take the 7 seconds that the RunSmart calculator gives me for those 1200s today and rest easy... and account for them in the next workout tomorrow.

Smoove, roger on the interval volume. And thanks again for the emotional rescue. WRT Lurker, I know you (Smoove) have made it clear that you follow Daniels philosophy as much as you understand it and don't profess to be an expert in it. I still appreciate your insight and discussion. So not sure what bone Lurker has to pick but it's hard for me to see what harm there is in translating a book written for the masses into individual recommendations for anonymous runners on the internet.

Well, you certainly have the first part right, and who can blame me? Who knows me better than myself?

On the other hand, I have been an unapologetic Daniels devotee and acolyte the other time. Go ahead and call me smug or self-satisfied. You might be accurate. But I am certainly no plagiarist. The "if you read and digest Daniels" portion of my post should have been a fairly clear tip off on that front.

Smoove wrote:

Who knows me better than myself?

On the other hand,

Props if this was intentional.

team1...happy to help, keep up the good work. you'll be fine once the temps drop.

I was hoping a little levity would get the thread past a sticky situation, but the "on the other hand" line was just good fortune.

Smoove - yes, we were doing so well, but you had to bring this up again. Anytime anyone has the slightest disagreement with Daniels or your perceived best method, you must "dispel" the misconceptions and be the defender of your one-way perspective. I find it interesting that Runn3rGirl obviously does not use JD or a particular plan, but she is never criticized or corrected. Why not correct all of her "errors," as her "errors" are similar to mine? This is not at all a criticism of Runn3rGirl or her running. I am just trying to point out how this forum usually "plays."

My question to your response is: What good is a plan if you keep having to alter it?

Do you think I do not know that I could just use a plan, and then alter it all the time? Anyone can do that, but I just do not think it worthwhile or more productive in the grand scheme of things.

DSP - Back your sniping ways, even when no one is sniping at you.

The point that you miss is that structured workouts are impossible to do on many, many days when the weather is bad, both in summer and winter. You can go on and on about altering things (the same argument Smoove loves to employ), but the fact remains that the plan is constantly being altered during challenging portions of the year. What good is the plan then?

Likewise, what good is trying to push yourself on days when you are feeling bad or when the weather is bad? Summer offers one a near-constant challenge, and so we are already pushing ourselves, sometimes on easy or moderate intensity days, too.

In my view, the better approach is to listen to one's body, observe the weather, and act accordingly.

team 1's comments this morning merely showed the flaw of trying to do certain things on certain days, rather than trying to do them when one is capable of doing them. He called it a "mixed bag," and, overall, I agree with that assessment. Structure is good (especially in a looser or overall sense), but it does not meet the requirements of every situation...hardly.

So, you can keep up with your criticisms, but most of my best performances (as I have shown again this year) have come when I was using common sense and basic principles of exercise and distance running, as opposed to using someone else's cookie-cutter plan.

You were very quiet, DSP, when I put up the 17:58...off of base training, too. And you were likewise silent when I put up an 18:17 on a very hilly course shortly thereafter.

But what I do I know...I am just a guy who runs (as opposed to one who "trains")...one who actually uses an approach not unlike perhaps the best runner on this forum, Runn3rgirl. God bless you, Runn3rGirl, as your training is filled with common sense and basic principles...and, mostly importantly, things that have worked for you.

Would love to be friends with you, DSP (and I mean that), but I do not know why you must continue with this stuff.

There is more than one way to do things, and I think my recent running (and the running of others here) has shown this.

Before I forget: you can praise RRR for choosing to run with some moxie in a certain race, but when I mention having done this in a race, you send nothing but criticism and snide remarks my way. Interesting...

All the best to everyone...

I wasn't necessarily being Daniels specific. I know people train with approaches other than Daniels, and I'm not critical of their training, but I was not at all critical of your training either. Look back and you will see that. I was just addressing your take on structured approaches (which, honestly, was tinged with disdain), not on your training. I didn't want or mean to offend you, and I truly am sorry that I did.

And using her as a stand in for any number of people, while Runn3rgirl doesn't lay out a plan in advance or follow a Daniels style approach, she is also an experienced runner who learned in college that certain aspects of Daniels' approach don't work for her. if you look at her training and her comments, she definitely has structure to her approach, with a specific and consistent emphasis on shorter reps and hill repeats, an occasional bout of shorter vo2max stuff coming via fartleks, and very little tempo work based on her prior experience. Lots of people apply principles of structured training in a looser way than me - they keep their long term goals in mind and tweak their workouts each week based on what they are planning on and how they are feeling - but their long term goals drive the planning. I suspect that she does a bit of that.

Thanks for the apology, Smoove...that is very kind of you. I was not that offended by you, just rubbed a bit the wrong way. You know I love you.

All the best to you...

NOT davy pumpkins wrote:

Lurker of this thread, just wanted to say that Smoove LOVES jerking himself off to all of his "knowledge" as a coach even though he basically just translates Daniels books and tries to pass it off as coaching advice

Oh stfu. We can mix it up amongst ourselves but we don't need outsiders coming in and stirring the pot. Smoove has been very generous w advice both on the thread and off to me and others. Go crawl back in your hole and continue to lurk.

Thanks for the support RRR, but don't worry about it. Sometimes, people perceive me as arrogant or self-satisfied. They lash out, and I try not to feed it. Honestly, I only care to the extent that it detracts from the string. Plus, I probably am a little arrogant. I can't help it if I'm freaking awesome and I know it.

Inside Jogger wrote:

...

This thread is about people trying to support each other's training so unless you would like to try posting something constructive, just can it.

Thanks,

The posters of this thread