Is Said Aouita the greatest villain in track and field history?

Just putting this out there, because it's awesome for three or four reasons:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsNuzBGZHo0

Yeah, yeah, I get that you are German and therefore you feel it an outrage that anybody who disagrees with your opinion is able to express his disagreement without being banned, perhaps put in a re-education camp or similar. This is an American owned forum, and besides, Germany still doesn't have complete control over the thoughts of 400 million Europeans. Not sure what the rules are here as one of my posts defending Scottish athletes from doping accusations was deleted recently, but I don't think I'm doing anything wrong here. Aouita was sacked from his position as head coach of Australian athletics because several athletes made claims that he was pressurizing them persistently to take illegal PEDs. He then ran back to Morrocco rather than defend himself at a tribunal. To my knowledge he has never spoken about the affair since, yet despite this he has gained positions as national director of coaching in Quatar as well as his home country Morocco. This affair alone warrants discussion of possible drug use by him.

I'm not forcing you to take part in this discussion, which is taking up far too much of my time as it is. However, I think it's important to air this. Our sport is dying on its feet because of rampant drug use, and there's a good argument to be made that Said Aouita is perhaps the one individual in track history most responsible for the present plight. I'd far rather some others took up the cudgel and analysed his career record but it seems entirely left to me to do all the Google research etc - just an average armchair fan and hobby jogger. I would also again remind you that you chose to become personally abusive to me.

Again, not many of your points make sense. I'm not sure you actually read my posts. You still didn't list any notable 1500/mile RACES won by Aouita. Ovett doesn't just have one bronze medal he has Golds at the European Championships which were highly competitive back then, especially on East European home turf as in Prague 78. He also has two World Cup victories. At least one of his WRs was an actual race with Wessinghage and co chasing him to the line. The only reason I mentioned Ovett's 84 victories over Gonzalez was in answer to Ventolin who was mocking the idea that even a healthy Ovett had any chance in LA, despite setting the WR less than 10 months previously - in a time which Ventolin/Calculo thinks was worth low 3:29). If Ovett was capable of low 3:29 in 83 at age 27 when nobody in history had yet broken 3:30, then he was good for a similar time in LA 10 months later at age 28 if he had stayed healthy.

Well, if Ovett was a specialist 1500m runner than it makes his Olympic 800m Gold, two mile WR beating Henry Rono (running the most spectacular season of any distance runner in history) and running 13:20 times in the 5000m all the more incredible. In which case, it's odd you mock the suggestion I made in the other thread that potential wise, Ovett could have been the greatest middle/long distance runner in history.

It would be very interesting if any videos are online of any races from Aouita's time on the European circuit in 81 and 82 when he was struggling to break 1:50 and 3:40.

Aouita claims to have ran a 36 second final 300m in a 3:34 1500m race before LA, thus 'proving' that he would have smashed Coe if he had chosen to run.

This is a runner who couldn't regularly break 1:50 for the 800m only 2 seasons before this. That's 55 seconds a lap in an 800m race, yet two years later he was capable of 36 sec 300m at the end of a fast 1500m.

Coe ran 12.1 seconds in the last 100m of the Moscow 1500m. An astonishing feat that left even Ovett in his prime trailing in the dust. Yet Aouita was capable of doing this, as a 5000m runner, for 300m in a faster 1500m race.

But just two seasons prior to that, he'd been struggling for a number of years to break 1:50/3:40. That doesn't make any kind of sense unless his running form prior to 83 was ridiculously bad. Such an incredible improvement for an experienced full time athlete can only be explained by a radical change in running form or through the use of PEDs. It's almost ridiculous to suppose that Aouita had such poor form as a runner that it was costing him seconds per lap, including a vast difference in raw sprinting speed. But at least if we could see a video of him in action in 81 or 82 we should be able to see it. Otherwise, there is simply no way that 'extra milage, more intelligent training sessions, a bit more work in the weights room' etc, could turn a 1:50 3:40 14:50 guy into a 1:43/3:28/12:55 with the ability to sprint the final 300m in a 3:34 1500m in 36 seconds.

I would genuinely like more knowledgeable posters here to contribute to this thread. Nowhere previously on any forum online it seems has it been even mentioned Aouita's struggles on the circuit for several years before his astounding breakthrough in 83. Can this sudden improvement really be explained simply by Aouita 'getting serious'?

I'm not saying Said88 isn't knowledgeable but he or she is obviously biased towards his/her favourite Said Aouita and seems to ignore the PED accusations and the Australian scandal. This debate is too important just to be conducted by me and Said88.

I'm also puzzled why Cram and Coe, and even Ovett never seemed to find Aouita's rapid rise problematic. Cram has gone on record as saying that he 'knew' Ramzi was a cheat because of his all too rapid rise. But surely there have NEVER been such a rapid transformation as Aouita. I can understand athletics fans such as on this forum not really understanding how rapid and extraordinary Aouita's breakthrough was, but obviously Coe/Cram/Ovett would have witnessed first hand Aouita getting smashed in the B races in 81 and 82.

Coevett wrote:

Yeah, yeah, I get that you are German and therefore you feel it an outrage that anybody who disagrees with your opinion is able to express his disagreement without being banned, perhaps put in a re-education camp or similar. This is an American owned forum, and besides, Germany still doesn't have complete control over the thoughts of 400 million Europeans. .

OK, a new low level point is reached here.

You obviously have never grasped the difference between an opinion and facts.

You can mention any opinion you want.

That Ovett has had the better hair cut than Aouita. Or that his name sounds better than Aouita's. That he is more sympathic to you. Or or or...

But I'm not talking about opinions. I'm talking about facts.

And it is a fact, that it's not clear (with our knowledge) at all why Coe and Aouita havn't raced in Zürich '84. The article which was presented for you clearly gives the impression that Aouita wanted to run (but for sure not as a pacemeker) but Coe doesn't wanted this. For many this would be the finish to the issue: Coe was the one who denied the race. I would not do this. But you continue to write that Aouita has "dodged" Coe. This is some sort of lie.

But I'm tired to write the same things again and again. All the other points which you don't like: no comments from you.

But you also have contradicted yourself: first you were trying to figure out how weak in fact any of Aouita's performances really were. Than you were talking about superhuman efforts. For sure both is bullshit.

It was new for you that Ovett mainly was a 1500m runner? OK, that's an great info, maybe you should have clarified this more early.

Winning 800m Gold an beating Rono is fantastic. But for sure no comments from you to what I have written about your laughable point regarding the 2 Miles WBs from Ovett and Aouita. Ovett has had a pacemaker until 90m before the finish. You have never seen Aouita's race, yet you give some analysis of the race. Some sort of lie. And was it really new for you that 3000m and 2 Miles are not so far away from each other? And that Aouita was the first under 7:30? Something like 8:03 or so for 2 Miles?

Also no comments from you about the infos I presented you regarding Aouita's results prior 1983. In '82 he already has beaten guys like Thomas Wessinghage (European Champion in this year). And many very good long distance runners in Cross Country. For example Carlos Lopes (if you don't know Lopes, maybe you can do the research by yourself).

You really want that I list some 1500m races from Aouita for you? You are really a very curious guy(?).

During his best years (84 - 89) I would estimate that he has run over 50 1500m or Mile races. The big majority of these races were not time trials (again: just for the info, nothing bad about trying to run as fast as possible - that's a big part of this sport). In these races he has beaten several times the likes of Walker, Scott, Ovett, Gonzalez, Abascal, Maree, Bile, Peter Rono, Elliott, Herold, Khalifa and many more. He has had just two clashes with Steve Cram during this period. And none with Sebastian Coe. Very sad for the sport. Apart from the loss to Steve Cram by 4/100 of a second after he has shown definitely one of the best finishes in the history of the event and has run very wide, Aouita has won all of them. Titles which he has won at the distance: Mediteranean Games (2 times); African Championships; World University Games; Pan Arabic Games.

On the global stage, he choose to run the distance in '83 and '88. In '83 he was not yet in his later form and the field was probably one of the best ever, but he still could win a bronce (Cram and Scott were better on the day). In '88 he could not run the semi because of his injury (btw. also no comment from you to the interview which I linked for you).

When have I offended you? I normaly don't do this. But when someone talkes stupidity, there is no reason not to say.

Give me my comment and the phrase it was a reaction to. I'm pretty sure I said you talk stupidity because you talked stupidity. If I was wrong for sure I will admit.

There is another thread from a few years back that does mention Aouita's mediocre performances prior to 83 :

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=3629520

In fact it was Deano who pointed this out, and he also pointed out that Aouita moved to Italy in the winter of 82/83.

Clarifies the Australian doping scandal a bit. Although Aouita was cleared (after Aouita had already fled) several other runners then came forward to corroborate the original allegation.

Also, that thread was in response to the LetsRun frontpage the week before, which was celebrating the anniversary of Steve Cram's amazing 85 season and contained the following statement :

"We won't list Aouita's fantastic string of races from 1985, as given the fact that several Australian athletes claimed in 2004 and 2006 that Aouita tried to dope them when he was their coach, we feel there is a strong possibility that Aouita was on performance-enhancing drugs during his career. Of course, sadly, that "strong possibility" probably exists with a slew of the top stars from the 1980s and 1990s."

http://www.letsrun.com/2010/weekthatwas0719.php#ixzz4kgAyRVmJ

@Aouita - I just don't have time to answer all of your points and also because I've already answered them anyway.

For example your 'oh so it's news to you that Ovett was a specialist 1500m runner'. Err, no. I spent a great deal of time making just that point in the thread 'who is the greatest middle/distance runner of all time'.

First you started personally abusing me because I questioned your hero Aouita, and now you want me banned because I continue to disagree with you. Unfortunately, as you see in my last post the owners of this forum also question Aouita's legitimacy (and that was before my efforts in exposing just how curious Aouita's progression was from 82 - 83).

Sorry, this is the link to the 2010 thread in which somebody (said88?) accuses the owners of the board of racism for suggesting that a Moroccan athlete/coach who urged his athletes to take PEDs might have taken PEDs himself.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=3629520

I'm sure Said will find the following Sports Ilustrated article from 1986 interesting.

https://www.si.com/vault/1986/06/23/629216/two-aces-on-a-collision-course

First of all it makes clear that Aouita was running in Junior High School, not all of a sudden at 18 or 19 as his apologists like to pretend :

"Aouita once was punished at Abu Abbas Sebti Junior High School because he came to run without rope-soled sandals. Then his teacher, Abdelazziz Khomssi, realizing the family was too poor to buy any, gave him a pair.

The young Aouita was gentle and withdrawn, yet had churning energy. He was attracted by anything that would get him out, get him up. English might help, so he studied that. "He was bad in history and geography," says Lassri. "In school once, Said was criticized by a teacher because he'd written a mediocre paper. Said answered back, 'What I will not get through the pen, I will get with my legs.'

Aouita began to spend many hours running on the green fields and grounds of two junior high schools just outside Fez's massive city walls. Soon he started to win races, and dream, and talk about his dreams. Says Hamid Hammada, Morocco's steeplechase champion, who trained with him, "He was determined to become a great champion like Kenya's [Henry] Rono. He said running would bring him glory, travel and money." "

Article then points out that Aouita moved to Italy in 83, presumably in early 83. Interestingly, his Italian 'manager' implies that Aouita may have even been older than he claimed - perhaps he started that noble African trend too? :

"In 1981, Aouita won the World University Games 1,500 in 3:38.43 and caught the eye of one Enrico Dionisi, of Siena, Italy. Dionisi is a banker, track club manager, and now Aouita's agent. "Talking with Said, I had the impression he was older than he was," says Dionisi. "He reminded me of Sebastian Coe at the same age, so nervous to arrive, so wanting to be someone."

Aouita has been based in Siena since 1983 with his wife, Khadija, a former high jumper."

Then goes on to describe how Aouita saw himself as a form of hardcore desert Islam, often fantasizing about blowing up Coe, Ovett, and Cram :

"An interesting analogy. "It's funny," Aouita has said. "Every time I see Cram and Coe I want to get inside them, to blow them up, to massacre them. Of course, it's not people I see, but runners I want to dominate...."

But here's the real shocker - he actually accuses the Brits of doping :

"Often, the judgmental severity of desert Islam comes out in Aouita's remarks on competitors. "I think I am the only middle distance runner in the world who doesn't cheat," he says. "I don't ever save myself for the next race. I always give it all. On the other hand, if you see Cram run only 3:57 for the mile, one has to think something is fishy. I don't have that mentality. I always run strongly."

Did Coe and Cram miss this article at the time? Do they really know that Aouita was accusing them of doping in the 80's whilst feverishly fantasizing about murdering them?

Coevett wrote:

But here's the real shocker - he actually accuses the Brits of doping :

"I think I am the only middle distance runner in the world who doesn't cheat," he says. "I don't ever save myself for the next race. I always give it all. On the other hand, if you see Cram run only 3:57 for the mile, one has to think something is fishy. I don't have that mentality. I always run strongly."

Did Coe and Cram miss this article at the time? Do they really know that Aouita was accusing them of doping in the 80's whilst feverishly fantasizing about murdering them?

This short sequence summerices big parts of this whole thread very good.

You read inty any sentence what you WANT to read into it. Steve Cram has said it once like this (regarding Aouita quotes): "The main point might be lost in translation". If this sentence was said like this at all is questionable. But ist's obvious to me that with "cheating" was not meant for not following the rules. But not "giving it all" (and thus "cheating" in terms of the spectators or something like this). For sure this is also bullshit, but definitely totally different from what you WANT to read. Is it just possible that you overreact here because of any sentence?

This might shed some light on the argument of aouita's past. It is derived from a very succinctly written book on kada and various Moroccans:

http://imgur.com/a/1WmRb

The Italian agent says it all, even Renato much to his own surprise, said that blood transfusions were rampant in Italy during the 1980s. It is extremely unlikely that he was not blood doping.

Sounds like a member of ISIS, put a travel ban on him immediately.

Why is seemingly every arab obsessed with blowing people up? What the heck, man?

pmurt wrote:

"Aouita's 10000 is not good enough to count as impressive range."

And Peter Snell never ran a very impressive mile either.

When Aouita ran 27:26 in 1966, the world record was 27:14 and not many runner had broken 27:30. He was about the 5th 6th on the all-time list.

For a 1:44/3:29/3:46 guy to run a 27:26 was pretty shocking at the time.

I agree with you and you ARE RIGHT, but from my memory:

Mamede --- 27:13 WR (84)

Lopes --- 27:17 (84)

Nenow --- 27:20 (86)

Rono --- 27:22.47 WR (78)

Schildhauer --- 27:24 (83)

Salazar --- 27:25 (82)

AOUITA --- 27:26.11 (86)

Alex Hagelsteens --- 27:26.95 (82)

Virgin --- 27:29 (80)

Kunze --- 27:30 (83)

Foster --- 27:30.3 (78)

Kimobwa --- 27:30.47 WR (77)

Bedford --- 27:30.80 WR (73)

Vainio --- 27:30.99 (78)

Nenow's 27:20 (3rd all-time) was later in the Summer (at Brussels), so you nailed it. Aouita was 6th fastest runner all-time in his first and only 10,000m.

Is this aimed at anyone in particular? Aouita ran a WR at 1500m, 2000m, 3000m, 5000m (twice) and 2M. He clearly could have set records in the 10K and Steeple had he really worked at it.

Does anyone have any doubt that he used every chemical means available to achieve this? Are you daft? Of course he doped, like everyone ELSE!!

No, are you daft? Claiming that Aouita doped 'like everyone else' doesn't explain anything. Are you saying that in 1982 Aouita was just about the only athlete on the European circuit who WASN'T doping, and then decided in early 83 'it was the only way to win' and joined the club? His sudden and ridiculous transformation suggests that doping WAS NOT rife in the 80's and that he was one of the only ones doing it. Coe, Ovett, and Cram were running Aouita's pbs before 83 when they were still teens or even schoolboys. Of course, they all had their 'breakthrough years', but nothing to compare with Aouita going from a B level runner at age 23 to the most incredible athlete in history in the space of a year or two. If Aouita's transformation was due to visiting Italian blood doping clinics in the winter of 82, as seems almost certain, then it suggests that Coe, Cram and Ovett were capable of 1:40/3:24/12:40 times at least if they had done the same. I doubt very much Cram, for example, was running a 3:57 mile as a 17 year old schoolboy, with his parents not even able to afford to buy him a pair of decent running shoes, after being flown to Italy to an expensive private blood doping clinic.

Aouita's Italian doctor was for most of his career a doctor to Italian cyclists. Doping of any kind in sport was practically invented by Italian cyclists in the late 70s and 80s.

Another thing I forgot to mention last night was that the articles I quoted make clear that Aouita transferred from the French National Institute of Sport in Marseille, where he had been since 1979, to Sienna in Italy in (presumably early) 1983. So he'd spent 4 years at an elite European training institution and yet still could barely run 1:50 and 3:40 at age 22. The idea that he went from running in his sandals in the Moroccan desert to finally receiving some proper training in 1983, hence his remarkable late breakthrough, is completely and utterly false.

My favourite bit of that S.I. article is Ovett being quoted as advising Aouita to stick to one distance - presumably that meant the 5000m. So Ovett was advising Aouita in 1986, the year Ovett himself moved up to the 5000m (with Aouita at the time seemingly his only real rival if Ovett could stay healthy) to focus on the event. Meanwhile, Aouita was accusing Ovett, Coe, and Cram of being cheats and fantasizing about brutally murdering them all.

Yeah, bit unfair to claim Aouita has a 6-0 head to head over Ovett (you list it and then say you would never list it. What a completely immoral idiot you are). I wonder what the head to head would be if Aouita wasn't stuck in B races on the European circuit in 81 and 82 and was racing against Ovett when he was breaking world records while Aouita was running 1:50 and 3:40? The one race over 1500m when both were near their best was Helsinki. Ovett was short of confidence and ran the worst tactical race of his life. He was still eating up the ground on Aouita with every closing stride and would clearly have beaten him if not for such a poor tactical run.

Yes, it's clear Cram wasn't just injured in 87 but had a major confidence problem. Watch the 87 1500m final where he just appears to give up when he realizes he's not going to compete with Bile. Nobody would put much money right then on him performing in Seoul the next year. The fact that he got himself back into a position to do just that is amazing, and tragic that he got injured again just before the Games.

Billy Konchella was already known as somebody prone to illness , and in fact, he did get ill again shortly after Rome. I don't like to make accusations against athletes who are world beaters one season and ill the next, but in Konchella's case given his subsequent conviction for drugging and raping two Finnish children, I guess it might be justified.

On that note, Aouita's behaviour in interviews in the 80's are strongly suggestive of somebody taking steroids and God knows what else. I've read that cannabis can improve endurance. Constantly talking about what he'd do to the Brits, even openly fantasizing about murdering them, accusing them (and Scott...and Cruz) of doping, claiming to be able to run 3:27, 3:42, 12:45 when you spent most of your career at an elite sporting institution running 1:50, 3:40, 13:50, declaring your intention to compete in the 800, 1500 AND 5000 in the same Games, trying to break every world record from 800 to 10000 INCLUDING the steeplechase. That's hardcore even for the average high as a kite Arab.

Another damning fact about Aouita from his notorious stint as coach in Australia was that his athletes actually went backwards under him.

I mean this is a guy we're supposed to believe changed his training in the winter of 82 and 83 so successfully that he went from 1:50/3:40 to effectively 1:43/3:32 that season and from the next year 1:42/3:29/12:55

If anybody 'cracked the code' it was Aouita in the winter of 82/83. Since nobody has had such a transformation before or since, and all those times are world class even in the EPO era, Aouita should be the most knowledgeable coach in the history of athletics. Odd then that he hadn't a clue how to impart any beneficial knowledge to his Australian runners aside from 'take PEDs - it's the only way to win'.