Why did New Balance discontinue the RC150 racing flat?

Sorry trackhead this is off topic, but i dont really care to start a new thread.

I was wondering if you could tell me anything about the RC950s

mainly im interested in outsole wear, and and how soft or hard they are.

thank you.

uh, no wrote:

The only people who can benefit from wearing minimalist shoes are those whose biomechanics are ideal or non-intrusive to the natural running stride and so would not cause injuries needing some sort of motion control.

Personally speaking, my biomechanics are very bad. If I ever tried to do all my running barefoot or in racing flats, I would come down with yet another injury. There is no way to change this.

Also, a question to "jaguar": What is wrong the NB 150's? I've worn them for racing and they are a very good shoe.

Nonsense. I had 7 stress fractures wearing trainers and orthotics. None while wearing flats and running barefoot. My biomechanics are less than perfect; more likely "ideal" for me in less of a shoe. Maybe your biomechanics are bad and inefficient because of your shoes.... they keep you weak and unstable on your feet. There's nothing wrong with the NB150. Just try training in the Puma H Streets for a while. See how your stride smooths out and becomes more efficient. I got 250 miles out of my first pair back in June; 560 out of my last pair this past month (and I probably could have gotten more).

Jaguar1,

In response to your comment about my legs not being strong enough to handle the H streets: Since the H streets don't mimic barefoot running, it seems to undermine the minimalist argument. My point was that, since the narrow sole which is raised slightly from ground level, the shoe does not offer the support that running barefoot does. It is far too easy to roll over on the sides of the foot, much different than running barefoot.

Furthermore, I was only commenting on the comparisons between the RC150s, the H streets and barefoot running (I have tried a little of all three). In response to one poster's comment that the H streets are the same as RC 150s, I mentioned that the soles are completely different. The 150s seem to mimic barefoot running far better than H streets, but that is just based on the minimal running (I have run much more in the 150s) I have done in each. Albeit, most of my experience is based on casual wear.

Have you used the RC 150s, jaguar1?

i happen to agree with you on that point.

i do alot of running in H's and fell they are not very stable.For the reasons you mentioned(though it does get MUCH better after about 300mi).

BUT, i think if it fits you foot well(if you dont have a wide foot), they proabbly would come fairly close to barefoot running.

honestly the closeat thing for me has been indian moccasins(arrow moccasins are the best i know of). But i only use them during the winter, as they DONT breathe as well as i would like.

as you mentioned, fit is an issue.

I'm happy with the H Streets as a road runner because a) it fits and b) it won't be much different than the track spike I'll race in.

I would have loved to run in the 150s but there was never enough volume in the shoe for me.

As for the 950s, the outsole should wear well -- it doesn't look cheap. Of course, I haven't seen one after a few hundred miles so I can only guess. but you should be fine.

Bingham, Maiden_82: Apparently some runners do never touch down with their heels. Alison Roe was said to do this in the following quote from Pirie's book:

"It is important that a runner uses correct technique from the very first to the very last step of every run. The coach must begin teaching proper technique before any hard training is attempted. It is never too late to begin running correctly, no matter how long you have been running improperly. You can change! Running technique must be viewed as a skill and must be practised like any other skill until it is mastered, and becomes second nature.

Let us start at the very beginning, with the person standing to attention in bare feet. Raise yourself up onto tiptoes, and overbalance forward. You must take a step forward to keep from falling over. From the position which results (it is impossible to step forward onto the heel), you should begin to run at a slow velocity but with very light, quick steps - making sure to feel the stress on the toes. The runner's legs should remain flexed at the knees. A feeling of "sitting" with the seat down "like a duck" is employed with the body upright. An athlete who runs correctly will actually appear to be shorter than other runners of the same height who are not running properly. By keeping his knees flexed and by landing on the ball of the foot on each step, and with the foot beneath the body, the runner will spring along very quietly. As the weight of the runner's body rides over the foot, the entire sole will rest flat on the ground - do not remain like a ballet dancer on your toes throughout the weight bearing phase. Alison Roe did this, and was constantly injured.

The runner will generate more power and cover more ground with each stride by taking advantage of the springiness and power of the muscles in the feet and forelegs as well as the thighs. The runner's tempo should be at least three steps per second. A person running correctly will make virtually no noise as he moves along. A conscious effort must be made to run as lightly as possible. The runner must be aware of what his or her feet and knees are doing at this early stage (I think about my feet and knees, but avoid visual checks. Do not glance down constantly like many runners do, seeing if their legs are "looking good"). Try to maintain a quicker tempo than is natural. Don't lean forward.

A runner whose style causes him or her to overstride, striking the ground heel-first with straightened knee joints, is running on a very short road to the doctor's office."

Going back to another angle on this thread, I have to say that at least some people (maybe most?) with imperfect form can run in at least some minimalist shoes. In normal training shoes, I generally need medial posting because of overpronation. I have a wide forefoot (associated with instability?), normal or narrowish from midfoot back, a big bunion like big toe joint (but no symptoms of bunions... full range of motion with no clicking or pain), a normal arch, lower legs slightly bowed in. I have had luck with a few non-medial posted training shoes in the past (e.g. Adidas Response trail of the late '90s), but in general running in neutral trainers cause my knees to hurt. I severly overpronate in the current version of Adidas Response Trail (tested after maybe less than 150 miles of wear). I get the same knee pain with the neutral Montrail Masai, the last Pegasus that I tried (around 1990), and an Adidas neutral road shoe (forgot name) 5 years ago.

So I sound like a bad candidate for a minimalist shoe right? Not quite. I probably put over 1000 miles in a pair of Adidas Lightfoots (a shoe with the Neptune midsole with knarly treads). I also don't overpronate in the Inov8 Mudrocs and Adidas Swoop, both un-medially posted low profile lightweight mountain running shoes. The Lightfoots did finally cause some knee pain last summer, but they were really really trashed by then. I also ran in the Neptunes as a trail race shoe, but had less success with them even though they have the same midsole as the Lightfoots. The upper is narrower on the Neptunes, and didn't seem to contain my feet as well over the midsole. But they don't cause knee pain. After trying the Swoops and Inov8's, I've decided that the both the Neptune and Lightfoot are just too narrow in the forefoot for me to be comfortable and the toes are curled up too much (toespring), but the point is that they don't cause my knees to hurt like neutral trainers with thicker midsoles. I'm not certain that I can run in any particular minimalist shoe though. Some just feel more stable than others, like someone's point about the difference in width and resulting underfoot support differences (especially for a wider foot) between the RC150 and the H Streets.

Oh yeah, trackhead, from all that stuff that I posted above, do you think that the H Street or Cubato would work as a trainer for me?

And any size hints on the H Street (I normally wear 10.5 Adidas trainers, 11 Neptune, 11 Shift LD)? I don't think my local running store has those.

[quote]need some l.w. training shoes wrote:

Bingham, Maiden_82: Apparently some runners do never touch down with their heels. Alison Roe was said to do this in the following quote from Pirie's book:

As the weight of the runner's body rides over the foot, the entire sole will rest flat on the ground - do not remain like a ballet dancer on your toes throughout the weight bearing phase. Alison Roe did this, and was constantly injured.

quote]

i suppose some runners might force themselves to be constantly on their toes, but they will not be the ones winning races.

also injury rate is NOT a direct indication of whether or not you need to drasticly change your form (this is almost impossible anyway).

My objections had nothing to do with any specific term, and (still) regarding your posts as unintelligible and unreadable is not a personal attack, it's an observation of fact. If you want people (besides the random typical Letsrun knucklehead) to believe that you know what you're writing about, then you need to project that skillfully. Like it or not, if you write like a 3rd grader, then you'll be thought of as being as simple in analytical thought processes as a 3rd grader.

lol....yeah well this isnt graded and i provided links...

Madein_82 wrote:

i suppose some runners might force themselves to be constantly on their toes, but they will not be the ones winning races.

Damn, not only too ignorant to consider that it might be possible and not "forced" but natural, but too stupid to even know who Alison Roe was. I can see now that extending no credibility to you based on your communication skills once again proved correct.

Bingham wrote:

Madein_82 wrote:

i suppose some runners might force themselves to be constantly on their toes, but they will not be the ones winning races.

Damn, not only too ignorant to consider that it might be possible and not "forced" but natural, but too stupid to even know who Alison Roe was. I can see now that extending no credibility to you based on your communication skills once again proved correct.

ok ill try this a again humans are "Plantigrades".Its not an opinion it is a biological fact. You could run only on your tarsal bones(digitigrade).

or hell try running on your phlanges for all i care(ungulagrade)

look that up for me ..

depends on fit. The H Street (I think) is more likely to fit you than the Cubs. But it's a big adjustment.

As far as the foot landing:

most people who go into something more minimal will initially move their footstrike forward. They're landing in such a way that by the time the foot is meeting the ground it is already beginning it's pushoff phase for the next foot strike. After a few thousand miles, the footstrike may or may not move back towards the heel. Whatever feels natural.

"not the one winning races."

Hmm, well, Alison Roe must have won at least one race since she set a WR in the marathon.

I tend to agree that not letting your heels touch down is not considered good form, but if it works, it works.

With all due respect, I'll take the word of the 2 podiatrists, 5 physical therapists, and 1 sports MD who have biomechanically evaluated me over running discussion board theory.

I do not know you went about molding your feet, but my mechanics will remain the same no matter what shoe I wear. I did my share of barefoot training as I mentioned, and I am now injured with bursitis. It has been suggested to me that had I stayed in my shoes, I would not now be injured.

My biomechanics simply do not work well as a runner. Running in less shoe would exacerbate the problem because my first ray dips below the horizontal plane of the rest of my foot, and the repetitive jerking of my overpronation has caused me peroneal tendonitis in the past until starting with orthotics. After that, the problem disappeared.

No, I have done plenty of foot strengthening exercises and barefoot running. It has not helped.

I wonder if it is possible for you and others of your mindset to admit that your theories do not work for a large number of injury prone runners.

gotta take it slow

what do your feet look like?

They look similar to the picture you posted on this or another thread.

The degree of dorsiflexion of my left foot is 12 degrees. It is slightly pronated but generally normal, and my only injuries were an avulsion fracture from an accidental stepping on a rock on a rainy trail, and failing to recognize this was fractured and continuing to run until the 1st metatarsal fractured running a road race.

Also, my left foot has a case of Achilles tendonitis when I first began running that has since never bothered me.

My right foot has a degree of dorsiflexion of just 5 degrees (measured by a PT). It is severely pronated, though I have high arches. I have had a 5th metatarsal stress fracture, 3 cases of 5th metatarsal tendonitis, 1st metatarsal tendonitis (a dipped 1st ray; if my right foot is lifted in the air, the 1st metatarsal slumps while the other 2nd-5th phalangeal regions remain upright), peroneal tendonitis, talus strain, ankle sprains, and 3 back strains of the illiac crest related to poor biomechanics in my foot.

Now in my right foot I have bad bursitis in the calcaneus.

My balance is also much worse on the right side despite regular proprioception work.

I have asked doctors about the points discussed on this board, as I love to run barefoot and feel more comfortable in less shoe. But since the orthotics, I have had no fractures. And all the doctors I have seen (and there are many) said it was not a good idea.

Ok ill post this again. "As the weight of the runner's body rides over the foot, THE ENTIRE SOLE WILL REST FLAT ON THE GROUND - DO NOT REMAIN LIKE A BALLET DANCER ON YOUR TOES throughout the weight bearing phase. Alison Roe did this, and was constantly injured."ok the entire sole WILL include your heel.AND, when your heel comes down IT WILL pronate.Someone had argued that it is best to run, without EVER leting your heel come down at anypoint during the stride.which is of course wrong.

need some l.w. training shoes wrote:

"not the one winning races."

Hmm, well, Alison Roe must have won at least one race since she set a WR in the marathon.

I tend to agree that not letting your heels touch down is not considered good form, but if it works, it works.

Have you guys ever seen pictures of that tribe in Africa that have feet like an Ostrich? Just two big toes. Good luck getting those babies in a motion control shoe.