Doesn't Russian Doping Scandal Prove Canova is Right about EPO?

It sounds like Matthew Kisorio is talking about the use of EPO in that article. Matthew was banned when he tested positive for the anabolic steroid nandrolone. Matthew was coached by Claudio Berardelli.

Agatha Jeruto was banned when she tested positive for 19-norandrosterone, which is the major metabolite of the anabolic steroid nandrolone. Agatha was also coached by Claudio Berardelli.

Rita Jeptoo was banned when she tested positive for EPO. Rita was also coached by Claudio Berardelli.

Claudio Berardelli has had very bad luck with some of his athletes who have been doping. All three runners were also managed by Federico Rosa.

Pamela Chepchumba was another Rosa athlete who was banned when she tested positive for EPO at the 2003 World XC Championships.

Females have lower levels of hemoglobin and testosterone than males, so blood doping with EPO (or autologous blood transfusions) and/or doping with anabolic steroids will have a greater effect on females compared to males.

Leonid Shvetsov was in Albuqueque, New Mexico:

Leonid used EPO in addition to the anabolic steroids oxandrolone and stanozolol.

Grigory Rodchenkov is the former Moscow Lab Director who is now living in the United States. He was lucky. Two other major doping officials in Russia died of heart attacks within a few weeks of each other. He was involved in all the Russian doping scandals and was giving anabolic steroid cocktail drinks to athletes which had oxandrolone as one of the ingredients. He also did research with his former lab assistant Timofei Sobolevsky on metabolites for oxandrolone and Turinabol (4-chlorodehydromethyltestosterone) which extended the detection window for Turinabol from a few days to around 7 weeks. Many of the Russian athletes are testing positive now for Turinabol and oxandrolone on the 2008 and 2012 retests because of his research.

The sensitivity of the tests for all anabolic steroids and their metabolites has improved recently, which is why there are so many positive tests. The nandrolone metabolite 19-norandrosterone can sometimes be detected even 4 to 9 months after one IM injection.

Watch out dopers. An ABP for endogenous anabolic steroids is also being developed. The testers will be coming for you.

Do you hear the doorbell ringing?

What if Renato's claim doesn't go far enough, limited as it is to only a select group of highly trained world class East Africans?We've just seen from a Russian insider that 95% of the Russian national team were part of a structured state sponsored doping program. They were taking, not only EPO, but every drug they could mask, or make disappear. Yet their is a dearth of Russian male distance runners on the world scene in any track or road event.We've seen this pattern before, during track's Great "EPO Era" of the mid-1990's -- non-African male athletes, with the means to take non-detectable EPO like their cycling compatriots, unable to produce times significantly faster than their own 1980's-era predecessors. We continue to see the same pattern today, in the "post-EPO era" on the roads in the marathon.Is it always the same risk versus no-reward tradeoff that has existed since the beginning of EPO for all non-African athletes?Based on world class performances, it would seem, counter-intuitively, that low altitude dwelling Western men are actually low or non-responders to EPO (except Lombard and Hellebuyck), while high altitude dwelling East Africans, despite being well adapted to low-oxygen environments, are unusually high-responders to EPO.

jCo wrote:

Seriously, all these doped athletes and not a single marathoner below 2:12, not a single 10,000m runner below 27:30; not a single 5000m runner below 13:20; not a single steeplechaser under 8:20; not a single 1500m runner below 3:35.

Doping is not the be-all, end all. I think Canova is right about doping. It is not a magic elixir like we all would like to believe.

rekrunner wrote:

Based on world class performances, it would seem, counter-intuitively, that low altitude dwelling Western men are actually low or non-responders to EPO (except Lombard and Hellebuyck), .

[/quote]

Before EPO you had blood doping so it is not as though you are comparing the effects of EPO with people not doing anything at all when looking at the changes in performances over the last 40 years in European distance running.

Besides, you have conveniently have left out a slew of Spaniards and Portuguese. Their national records tumbled in the 1990s at a time when interest and participation in serious distance running in Europe plummeted.

As for the Russian men, there is no interest in competing seriously in distance running over the last decade and serious participation in the sport is relatively low..

Agreed! Most of the more famous dopers have used a variety of banned substances. Sprinters and distance runners use very similar stuff. Marion Jones and Dwain Chambers, for example, both used EPO.

EPO was described as a "game changer" in cycling. Are you suggesting it was not a similar "game changer" in running? After all, we "know" EPO works in running because of many anecdotes from cycling, because they are both "endurance sports". How can EPO explain the drastic plummet in track records in the mid-90's, yet also be virtually indistinguishable from the blood doping of the 80's?The Spaniards national times tumbled to the level of the European records of the 1980's. "slew of Portuguese"?As I said before, the Russian men follow the same pattern we've seen since 1985, and still see today, in all non-African men. It would seem for all non-African men, there must be "no interest in competing seriously in distance running over the last decade(s)". Therefore, if drugs work without any doubt for all, then all non-African men must not be taking drugs for decades because of lack of interest in the sport.

solution seeker wrote:

Before EPO you had blood doping so it is not as though you are comparing the effects of EPO with people not doing anything at all when looking at the changes in performances over the last 40 years in European distance running.

Besides, you have conveniently have left out a slew of Spaniards and Portuguese. Their national records tumbled in the 1990s at a time when interest and participation in serious distance running in Europe plummeted.

As for the Russian men, there is no interest in competing seriously in distance running over the last decade and serious participation in the sport is relatively low..

But how do we know we can trust this report?

This is yet more mainstream media conspiracy and lies against these brave, hardworking russian athletes. We know the CIA lies about russia to make them look bad, and that if russia denies it we should trust them, right guys, right?!

Why is the LAMEstream media ignoring the #ChurroGate story, where we know that obama, keith olberman and whoopi goldberg ran a top level travelling athletic doping programme out of the back of a mobile churro truck WHICH WAS ACTUALLY ROB YOUNG'S RV?!

MAKE ATHLETICS GREAT AGAIN

rekrunner wrote:

We've seen this pattern before, during track's Great "EPO Era" of the mid-1990's -- non-African male athletes, with the means to take non-detectable EPO like their cycling compatriots, unable to produce times significantly faster than their own 1980's-era predecessors.

Couple of facts to consider:

A) Non-Africans

a) Several national records were broken in the 90s.

b) The 80s had better organized, hard-core state-sponsored doping, including blood-doping (Cold War Doping Era).

c) Amphetamine- and testo-doping became harder during the 90s (better and increased testing).

B) Africans

d) The African athletes basically just started out in big numbers in the 90s.

e) There was no organized doping in Africa in the 80s, and definitely no blood-doping.

Tentative conclusion:

It is not that Africans reacted better to EPO, or that the Europeans/Americans were too nice people to use EPO. The Europeans and Americans improved less than the Africans in the 90s because they had a head start from the prior decades, both with respect to doping and training.

So are you saying that for cycling, which also had hard-core doping and mature training in the 80's, EPO was a "high octane" "game changer", while for distance running it was not a "game changer" because of the "head-start" in doping and training?

Isn't part of the basis that it works for East Africans because we know it works for non-Africans?

rekrunner wrote:

So are you saying that for cycling, which also had hard-core doping and mature training in the 80's, EPO was a "high octane" "game changer", while for distance running it was not a "game changer" because of the "head-start" in doping and training?

Isn't part of the basis that it works for East Africans because we know it works for non-Africans?

1) Cycling - i.e., the TdF, is a different story, because there was much less focus on state-organized doping (contrast for example the lack of success of the Germans, Americans, Brits and the Russians in the TdF with that in the Olympics in the 70s and 80s), as that Cold War doping was focused on Olympic competitions.

2) Yes. Doping, including EPO, works for everyone. Don't pretend to be naive.

What would you say if it came to light that a US runner used mechanical doping to get a silver medal in the olympics this summer....

and in running not cycling.

http://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/US7062865B1/US07062865-20060620-D00000.png

rekrunner wrote:

The Spaniards national times tumbled to the level of the European records of the 1980's. "slew of Portuguese"?

This is just yet another inacurate statement:

Name all of the Europeans in the 1980s that were faster than:

3;28

7.29

59 mins 52 secs

2h 06 min 52 sec

8 mins 7 sec (stc)

and remember that you are comparing just one medium sized country (population about 45 million) with an entire continent (population of about 700 million).

Regarding Portugal every single national record from 800m up to the marathon (with the exception of the 3000m) was set in the 1990s/early 2000s. But I suppose you never heard of Pinto, Jesus, Castro, Silva etc ..

You write so many things that are just not accurate - the devil is in the detail and you are not looking (or don't want to look) closely enough. People are not going to start taking EPO and start running 10 mins for 5000m a few minutes after their 1st injection yet it seems that is the sort of evidence that you need to be able to delare that EPO is an effective PED for distance runners.

rekrunner wrote:

It would seem for all non-African men, there must be "no interest in competing seriously in distance running over the last decade(s)". Therefore, if drugs work without any doubt for all, then all non-African men must not be taking drugs for decades because of lack of interest in the sport.

I will let you and others reread this statement of yours again so you can ponder upon all of its shortcomings.

You are right that national records have smaller sample sizes, so can vary more than European records.That's why singling out national records for Spain or Portugal for comparison makes less sense than comparing "all of Europe" (and/or America or and/or Australia) with itself.Steve Cram ran 3:29 (+0.7) in 1985Dave Moorecroft ran 7:32 (+3.4) in 1982Where is 5000m? Dave Moorcroft ran 13:00 in 1982.Where is 10000m? Mamede ran 27:12 in 1984Steve Jones ran 60:59 (+1:07) in 1986Carlos Lopes ran 2h07m12 (+36) in 1985Mark Rowland ran 8:07 (+0.5) in 1988Outside the less frequently run half-marathon, the mid-90's Spanish athletes were only bringing Spain (and Portugal) up to a similar standard set in Europe in the 80's. The European progression wasn't so dramatic that we need to think it could only happen with EPO.This is what I mean by "to the level of". The small improvements you are showing are indeed improvements, but they are also small.Compare the small gains by Spain and Portugal to the times East Africans were running in the same timeframe:3:267:2012:3926:2259:172:05:42The Africans of 1990 are performing at another level, compared to these Spanish and Portuguese and Europeans of the 1980's.It's hard for me to imagine that if the gains in the "EPO era" made are purely from doping and EPO, that the whole non-African (rich) world, America, Europe, and Oceania, did not have one single "Lance Armstrong" over more than a decade, able to match the routine performance of several dozens of athletes from small (poor) East-African countries.

1) I agree with you -- cycling and running are completely different sports. It hardly makes sense to draw conclusions about one from the experiences of the other.2) It's clear EPO works to increase red blood cells. It's less clear how that maps to performance.

casual obsever wrote:

1) Cycling - i.e., the TdF, is a different story, because there was much less focus on state-organized doping (contrast for example the lack of success of the Germans, Americans, Brits and the Russians in the TdF with that in the Olympics in the 70s and 80s), as that Cold War doping was focused on Olympic competitions.

2) Yes. Doping, including EPO, works for everyone. Don't pretend to be naive.

rekrunner

Jon Orange

Ghost

J.R.

rekrunner wrote:

1) I agree with you -- cycling and running are completely different sports. It hardly makes sense to draw conclusions about one from the experiences of the other.

2) It's clear EPO works to increase red blood cells. It's less clear how that maps to performance.

casual obsever wrote:

1) Cycling - i.e., the TdF, is a different story, because there was much less focus on state-organized doping (contrast for example the lack of success of the Germans, Americans, Brits and the Russians in the TdF with that in the Olympics in the 70s and 80s), as that Cold War doping was focused on Olympic competitions.

2) Yes. Doping, including EPO, works for everyone. Don't pretend to be naive.

Each gram of hemoglobin in the RBCs binds 1.39 mL of oxygen. There is nearly 20 mL of oxygen in every 100ml of whole blood. The increase of oxygen transport capacity with extra hemoglobin from any method (autologous blood transfusion, all types of EPO, HIF stabilizers, xenon/krypton gas, living at high altitude…or even doing all of these methods at the same time like I do) will increase VO2max, lactate threshold, and aerobic endurance performance measured in time to exhaustion or time trial performance in everyone, including elite and non-elite cyclists, runners, swimmers, and XC skiers. Removing RBCs (with hemoglobin) out of the body will decrease VO2max, lactate threshold and endurance performance. If a lot more blood is removed, any human will eventually die. It does not matter if the human is male or female or British or Ethiopian or Kenyan or lives at high altitude or at sea level or below sea level.

Oxygen acts as the final electron acceptor at the end of the electron transport chain, located on the inner mitochondrial membrane, which produces ATP through the process of oxidative phosphorylation. The ATP provides the energy for all cellular activity in the body, which gives leg muscles the energy to be able to contract, which also gives humans the ability to run for long distances.

There is discussion of this and 83 other references for you to read in this article:

You will probably find something wrong with the studies in the article, and reasons why the studies do not apply.

Finland was probably the first to do autologous blood transfusions in 1972. Viren won the 5K and 10K (world record), Vasala beats Kip Keino to win the 1500M, and they won the Boston marathon and the World XC championships around this time. Then other countries discovered the secret and their competitive advantage vanished.

1972-B.Ekblum, et al. Response to Exercise after Blood Loss and Reinfusion. Journal of Applied Physiology.1972 Aug;33(2):175-80. publishes about hemoglobin changes and exercise performance changes after blood transfusions.

1976-Waldemar Cierpinski cheats to win the marathon gold medal for East Germany. Viren wins 5K and 10K gold again.

1980-Cierpinski again wins the marathon. Kaarlo Maaninka of Finland wins silver in 10k and bronze in 5k, and is found to have done blood transfusions.

1982-Francesco Conconi of Italy publishes journal articles about the anaerobic threshold, with variations on the CONCONI test being done today on runners and cyclists.

1984-Allberto Cova of Italy wins 10k Olympic gold. He did blood transfusions. Marti Vainio of Finland wins silver in 10k ,but is caught with the anabolic steroid metenolone, which was possibly in his old stored blood which he transfused before the race, but forgot he was on metenolone when the blood was withdrawn for storage. He was not a very smart doper.

It is also discovered that one third of the US Cycling team at the Olympics, which won 9 medals, were doing blood transfusions.

1985-blood transfusions are declared illegal and banned...but there is no test for detection.

1987-New England Journal of Medicine publishes a trial of recombinant EPO called Epogen, made by the biotech firm Amgen. Amgen ironically goes on to be a major sponsor of the cycling Tour of California, where many of the riders are using its EPO product.

1987 - 5 Dutch cyclists die.

1988- 2 Dutch cyclists die. 1 Belgian cyclist dies.

.

In this 1991 NYT article, John Tracey states:

"I began hearing about EPO two to three years ago through the grapevine in running circles," said John Treacy, a silver medalist in the 1984 Olympic marathon. "The story was there was this new drug that would take over from blood doping, and that it was much better."

1988- Dr. Francesco Conconi publishes a study on serum EPO levels in cross-country skiers.

1988-Salvatore Antibo from Italy wins Olympic silver in 10k and Gelindo Bordin wins the gold medal in the marathon. Bordin also wins Boston in 1990.

1989-Epogen approved by FDA for use in US.

1989-EPO moves into cycling in a big way. 5 more Dutch cyclists die.

1990- 2 more Dutch cyclists die and 3 more Belgian cyclists die.

1990- IOC bans EPO, but there is no test for detection of EPO.

1990-1991- track has 3 to 5 sub 13:10 5k perfomers and/or performances per year.

1991- Dr. Gabriele Rosa arrives in Kenya and sets up his first training camp.

1992- Dr. Eufemiano Fuentes of Spain (of later Operation Puerto fame) is a doctor in Spain as Fermin Cacho wins the 1500m at the Barcelona Olympics. Dieter Baumann wins the 5k and Khalid Skah wins the 10k.

1993-14 men break 13:10 a total of 21 times!!! while the Chinese women go on a rampage with Wang Junxia 29:31.78 10k WR, 8:06.11 3k WR, that still stand to this day. (New 29:17.45 by Alamaz Ayana in 2016. She is managed by Jos Hermens)

1993-2000-rampant EPO use. There is no test for detection and records are smashed, with huge depth of fast times by many people in track and cycling. Cyclists like Pantani and Riis pushing their hematocrits up to dangerous levels of 60 or 65%. Cycling finally institutes a hematocrit cutoff limit max hematocrit of 50% or you can't race and cyclists respond by basically all of them then having hematocrits of 48-49.5%, which is just a coincidence that they are all just below the limit...right?

A protege of the Italian Dr. Conconi, mentioned previously, went on to become much more famous. His name was Dr. Michele Ferrari, and he was the doctor to the stars of pro cycling. Ferrari was doctor to Lance Armstrong, who is the prototype for a pharmaceutical experiment gone mad disguised as an athlete. They did everything…EPO, transfusions, the anabolic steroid testosterone, Human Growth Hormone. What a name! You can't make this stuff up. The mad genius Dr. Ferrari really did turn his riders into Ferraris, with extra horsepower. He also did a great job making sure that 1) he kept Lance alive and didn't kill him and 2) that Lance somehow passed his drug tests. It was probably Ferrari that pioneered taking EPO by iv instead of subcutaneous injection, so that the EPO could be cleared faster, and the window for a positive epo test was then very small. Michele Ferrari is a very smart guy who is presently in trouble with tax authorities for hiding large amounts of money in secret bank accounts (which are not secret now), and he is also banned for life from cycling.

2000- the first urine test for EPO is developed and used at the Olympics. The test improved by around 2005..The new test for EPO leads athletes back to the old method of blood transfusions, to avoid detection.

2004-Italian Stefano Baldini wins gold medal in marathon. American Tyler Hamilton is caught doing a heterologous blood tranfusion of someone else's blood at the Olympics, where he won the gold medal. His B test at the Olympics had problems and he kept the medal on a technicality, but finally returned the medal in 2011. His lawyers used the famous "Tyler is a human chimera with a vanishing twin" defense to explain why he had blood from two different people in his bloodstream. Tyler wins the comedy prize for funniest doping excuse of all time.

2006- Operation Puerto with Dr. Fuentes and 211 bags of blood, anabolic steroids.

2008-CERA (Continuous Erythropoietin Receptor Activator) , a new longer acting agent, with a much longer half-life 20x longer than epo, is appoved for use in Jan, 2008 under the name Mircera. Rashid Ramzi tests positive for CERA at the 2008 Olympics, and loses his gold medal.

In conclusion:

There is nothing to see here.

rekrunner wrote:

It's clear EPO works to increase red blood cells. It's less clear how that maps to performance.

Little point in commenting on it, unless you have experimented with it yourself or with athletes you have trained.

Which is why Canova's views on it carry little or no weight.

i like you! see everyone this guy uses REAL info! a few months ago i made a list off all the north africans/ethiopians,kenyans who have been popped for EPO, and instead of them brothers reading it, they defended renato and deleted my posts, then deleted my posts for the last 5 months, then sent me an email saying i was about to be banned.

bottom line on this site is the rejo/wejo brothers can accuse anyone and everyone they like for doping, but there are TWO that are completely off limits, ugly as sin i was a top 5 at best british woman who became OUT OF THIS WORLD in her later years (hmm kinda like mo) and renato...you call them out you get hassled

again how can renato be soooo sure about EPO doesnt work on the top kenyans? he is either a a huge LIAR (which is what i believe), or he has done lab rat testing on them since the early 2000's and his pride and joy shaheen never got better on the stuff.

my guess is he is a liar and all his group is doping. not as much as before cause he cant let them get busted, but micro style like alberto. he proclaims this lie so he can proclaim how he is the GREATEST COACH of all time, instead of being a good coach that gets top athletes and dopes them