What could El G and Lagat run for 200m in their prime?

My Calculo impression wrote:

Deanouk wrote:

With a couple of weeks practice of blocks when in 1500m peak form, then I'd say 23.5 - 24.0 FAT in a race with athletes of similar 200 ability.

If I had to choose a winner over 200m, then I'd say Lagat, 23.67 to 23.92! LOL

I guess they are the sort of times women capable of running in their national championships could run.

What are you smoking?

Yes, I later addressed that response and stated it was incorrect.

I'm inclined towards the 22.8 - 23.2 range for those 2 now.

Falling to bits wrote:

yyy wrote:

Snell had 22.8. Hard to believe that ELG was slower!!!!

Snell ran 1:44.2 on a rugby field, the man was a tank.

It was a rugby field in winter; a manicured cricket pitch in summer. Like a to-die-for fairway on a PGA course......and rolled with a heavy roller.

messi wrote:

Falling to bits wrote:

Snell ran 1:44.2 on a rugby field, the man was a tank.

It was a rugby field in winter; a manicured cricket pitch in summer. Like a to-die-for fairway on a PGA course......and rolled with a heavy roller.

I had heard that it might have been rolled, but I don't know whether there is actually any evidence that this is true?

Still it won't be as fast as a modern synthetic track.

Dead Nike Lunar Forever 2s wrote:

messi wrote:

It was a rugby field in winter; a manicured cricket pitch in summer. Like a to-die-for fairway on a PGA course......and rolled with a heavy roller.

I had heard that it might have been rolled, but I don't know whether there is actually any evidence that this is true?

Still it won't be as fast as a modern synthetic track.

The vid is on youtube - been posted by several people. The track was not rolled. Snell was 5'10 176, beefy for an 800/1500 type lol.

Doc Savage wrote:

Dead Nike Lunar Forever 2s wrote:

I had heard that it might have been rolled, but I don't know whether there is actually any evidence that this is true?

Still it won't be as fast as a modern synthetic track.

The vid is on youtube - been posted by several people. The track was not rolled. Snell was 5'10 176, beefy for an 800/1500 type lol.

A little secret, I had a family member there that day.

Deanouk wrote:Yes, I later addressed that response and stated it was incorrect.

I'm inclined towards the 22.8 - 23.2 range for those 2 now.

still a joke

poor analysis & lack of experience watching big time track

you have not comprehended recent research which shatters all pre-conceptions of 200 / 400 speed for middle distance guys who have no serious documented 200 or 400s :

Shortly before the World Championships last year, his manager watched him complete a workout on a synthetic track in Nairobi alongside Alfred Kipketer, an 800m specialist who trains under the same coach.

With a long recovery between each rep, the pair ran 400m in 47 seconds, 300m in 34, 200m in 22 and 150m in 16. “The guy is fast,” says Boeting. “Let me tell you, he is really fast.”

only the last run coud have been flat-out as he had to distribute energy for this work-out & still ran sensational 16+ !!! with a 400, 300 & 200 in his legs !!!

the 400, 300, 200 coudn't have been flat-out as distributing energy for these runs & unrested for 22+ !!!

if a steeple-chaser can run a 47+ at start of a work-out having to keep something in reserve for later runs & then 2 races later can run a 22+ !!!, it means for a 1-off rested run at 400 he had possibility of dipping into 46s & 21s !!!

& he is only a steeplechaser !!!

therefore it is ludicrous to believe that 3'26 guys like Bernie & hicham coudn't have also dipped into 46s & 21s when at 3'26 peaks

Bernie had likely quicker 200 & 400 than hicham as latter ran 3'26 with much better endurance, of 7'23 when he ran 3'43 whereas Bernie's 3kPB at the time was 7'30+ when slaughtered by saidi-sief in last lap of 7'25, when he was close at the bell, race which Bernie called "hardest of his life" at the time

however, hicham still likely good for at worst 22-flat & 47-flat in his 3'26wr shape

'Ruto's workout also makes cram's absurd suggested 22+ or 47-high a total joke as 'Ruto is not running a 1'42+

cram off 'Ruto's workout wouda been looking at 21-low/mid & 46-low/mid in is 1'42+ shape

Calculo

You really are not very bright. You believe almost everything you read and then cherry pick bs to fit your theories. Kipruto cannot run the workout you describe. How stupid are you?

No, your summary takes very vague data and then you do your usual guess work.

It says 47 and 22. These would have been hand timed and could be anything between 47.0 and 47.9, 22.0 - 22.9.

As they were hand timed, you can add a couple of tenths to both those.

It does not mention that they were from blocks or stationary starts. Far more likely they had a rolling start, meaning you can add another 0.7 to both of those.

It also says that they had 'long recovery' between each run.

We don't know how long that recovery was. It could have been 15 mins.

Also, you can't possibly say that they were not running all out. If the recovery is long enough, of course they could be all out efforts. If their coaches tell them to go all out and they know they have long recoveries and only a small number of runs to do, then they are not going to say to themselves, "oh, I better run 1 sec below what I'm capable of because I have a 200m to run in 15 mins!

So, with the HT and rolling start factors taken into consideration, those times would have been more like 22.9 - 23.8, and 47.9 - 48.8.

Which is about right for an elite 1500/3000m runner.

Only you would take vague data and extrapolate down by a second or more for each.

I doubt there is a current elite miler who can run 21 and 46. Possibly Makhloufi, and then it would be more like 21 high/46 high.

This is unlikely but at altitude you can sprint faster. Again this is unlikely. When you hear superhuman training it is usually puffed up to scare opponents.

The youtube app on this tablet posts random links to past races, interviews and training. One time it linked me through to Nick Willis training on the track in the middle of summer in Michigan and he ran a 48s 400m in training and it could've been his last rep. But I could be wrong (I usually am) so he would be a good guide to other miler-type 3:29 caliber runners. There is another video on YouTube of Kiprop running a 400m on a dirt track in Kenya in 48s.

a joke ??

read it & analyse

learn to read & analyse

it was at least a 2 man session primarily designed for Alf but 'Ruto obviously reckoned he had superb speed worth testing v Alf, so the lead times likely to have been Alf's presumably leading & those wouda been the times to tenths with 'Ruto apparently with him offered same time in whole seconds

Alf's coach probably has his boyz' timings to the tenths

no one in their right mind wouda been timing 'Ruto to tenths when this was Alf's workout

they do not say Alf 46+ & 'Ruto 47+, etc, so the pair were very obviously closely matched

the lead times were wouda been for Alf & it is nonsense to believe he was running near 47.9 or 22.9 in this workout, more like 47-flat/low & 22-flat/low with 'Ruto right there

this is man who the year before had won the juniors in a sensational solo 1'43.95 in eugene off suicidal 23.59 !!! & 49.42 !!

absurd 200m of 23.59 when Big-Man in '10 ran brace of 1'41-flats of ~ 24.5

Alf went out 1s+ too quick in his 1st 200 in eugene run

with drafting to bell he wouda been looking at 1'43-mid & just disregarding the 23.59, the 49.42 / 54.53 for 2s +ve splits wouda got him into 1'42-mid & that's ignoring the wrecking of a 23.59 & that it was his 3rd race in 3 days

any guy who is running 1'43+ solo off outrageous splits, worth at worst 1'42-mid with pacing & sensible 200 & 2s +ve splits woud be looking at 1-off 21-low / 46-flat/low, so 22.9 / 47.9 end is a joke, even when conserving energy for the races

only the 6th man to ever run a solo < 1'44 after :

- Big-Man 1'40.91

- Wilson 1'42.67i

- Gray in '92 trials 1'42.80

- Earl in '84 trials 1'43.74

- Kipkurgat '74 1'43.91

no

to 400 you add 0.14s

learn statistical error

is this a joke ???

of course not from blocks otherwise we couda had 0.01s timings

obviously from start line of lap for 400, 1500 start line for 300, 200m start line & only possible difficulty is the 150m distance as on standard track nearest measurement is the 7th hurdle which is 145m out from finish, but they couda added 3 strides back from this

for a 800m runner, it woud be absurd to do rolling starts as he was not doing 10 x 400 or 10 x 200 where speed builds up, but only 4 races & any 800 guy/coach woud want as most accurate run as possible meaning stationary starts

'Ruto woud likely follow as otherwise his workout wouda had little meaning either

no

Alf wouda learnt nothing from rolling starts for just 4 runs

anyone couda told him before he even ran them he couda run 47+ / 22+ with rolling start so waste of time even running them !!!

only use from this exercise woud be if run off stationary start to get accurate timings

& 'Ruto was with him

yes

& seeing as we are interested in their possible best fully rested 400 & 200s as if running a diamond league race, that rest better have been at least a week !!!

which woud be a terrible handicap for them as need more like a week

is this a joke ???

do you have any idea about the sport ???

if you run your flat-out 400 you are no state to run for days after

wade collapsed after his 43.4 win last year & never ran again that season & he ran nothing this year after his 43-flat

after a flat-out 400, it better be at least 1 week

is this a joke ???

how dumb do you think their coaches are ???

if they ran there flat-out best 400, they woud not be able to run another serious fast race for a week

why didn't wade even run a 200 after WC or games this year ???, when certainly he wouda been looking at 19.3 / 19.4 off 43-flat !!

is this a joke ???

that recovery after a flat-out 400 better be ~ 1 week

is this a joke ???

after flat-out 400 you can't contemplate another fast run at any distance for ~ 1 week, let alone 3 more fast runs in same session !!!

do you have any idea about the sport ??

they may not know any better, but any coach with 1/2 a clue wouda told them to run a controlled 400, & at least 1s slower for Alf, as he certainly had 46-flat/low speed in eugene-'14 & only a 47+ opener in this workout & 'Ruto was there with him !!!

a flat-out 400 wouda finished them for days

every training run is HT

no

no indication of rolling start & rolling start wouda provided useless info for Alf who was obviously the principal in this work-out

is this a joke ???

22-low / 47-low wouda been likely Alf's clockings & 'Ruto right there !!!

is this a joke ???

Alf has never run a 1500 & 'Ruto's sole 1500m as an adult was a 3'39.5 over 3y ago when he was 18y !

'Ruto can't be classed as an elite 1500 / 3000 guy, he hasn't run a serious 1500 in 3y !!!

as for his speed it was right there with Alf at likely 22-low / 47-low in controlled runs & 200 was with a 400 & 300 in his legs !!!

as comparator, mo woud never have broken 49 in his brace of 3'28s !!!

no

i analysed the data with previous info, such as Alf's ability in '14 to get fuller analysis

is this a joke ???

Souly in his 1'42.97 ran ~ 8m wide, minimal drafting & slight quit at end

he had intrinsic ~ 1'41.5 in him that day

to do that needs 21+ & 46+, probably 21-low/mid & 46-flat/low

maloofi put in intrinsic effort of brace of 1'41-highs in rio !!!

his speed was likely 21-mid/high & 46-mid/high

Asbel in '14 when only in 3'28+ shape crushed nijel who in similar shape ran 1'42.4 with ~ 8m extra !!!, nijel in intrinisic 1'41-mid shape at the time & Asbel crushed him in last 200, in 1'43.3 with ~ 6m extra wide, slow start, tactical race & only hard in last 200 & easing off at line

Asbel worth ~ 1'42-flat at the time & he wouda been quicker in '15 when running 3'26+

Asbel probably similar to Souly at 21-low/mid & 46-flat/low but far better endurance for 1500

no

more like 21-mid/high & 46-mid/high

sprint times are fractionally if at all helped by 5,450' of nairobi

let's use 22.00 & 47.00

the creator of wind-alitude calculator is a physicist & freely states that it's only use is for physics considerations & allows nothing for physiology of impaired areobic metabolism for sprints at altitude

if you don't think aerobic metabolism doesn't matter for 200 let alone 400, imagine trying to run a 200 or 400 in 100% nitrogen atmosphere pressured to 760mmHg

22.00 with 0 wind at 1661m ( 5,450' ) = 22.17

now, how much of that 0.17s advantage you want to knock off for lesser O2 concentration ?

47.00 at 1661m ( 5,450' ) = 47.38

now, how much of that 0.38s advantage you want to knock off for lesser O2 concentration in a much more aerobic race than a 200 ?

you woud have a point normally

however, this workout was done over 1y ago before WC & only mentioned 1y after in athletics media

that defeats purpose of intimidation

if that was the case, the manager/coach/athletes wouda publicised before last years WC to intimidate guys there & then not 1y later

Not sure Kiprop's race was in Nairobi, I think it was in Eldoret, that is 7000ft.

A rugby ball flies further in Pretoria and Jo-berg then sea level, less resistance. Pietro Mennea held the 200m WR for many years because it was set at altitude. The IAAF now recognizes that altitude helps sprint events.

If the Kenyan could run 47s he would run alot more short races, the SC can be horrendous on lower limbs leading to a much shorter career. More money in the mile and 800m. With his endurance and if the 47s is true he should be able to run 1:43 and 3:29-31. At those speeds he could earn 6 figures annually.

calculo wrote:

When you hear superhuman training it is usually puffed up to scare opponents

you woud have a point normally

however, this workout was done over 1y ago before WC & only mentioned 1y after in athletics media

that defeats purpose of intimidation

if that was the case, the manager/coach/athletes wouda publicised before last years WC to intimidate guys there & then not 1y later

An example of this was reports that Geb was doing 6 x 2k @5:05 pace @ +2500m above sea level with something like 4mins rest in between reps. But at his best 2k shape he was really only 4:53-56. So I doubt he would be able to do that training at that altitude with such ease with much regularity. Especially with the calf and achilles problems he had. But I bet it scared the heck out of his rivals.

Rieti wrote:

Hell, Mark Caroll ran 22.5 at 34 from the blocks .

Wow. This factoid just completely and utterly blows my mind.

Mark Caroll really was an absolute animal.

A 2h 10 min marathon over a very difficult course at New York and then a 22.5 200m time ran after his marathon. Plus a bunch of stellar PBs in between. The guy is one of the greatest all-round runners of all time and I am surprised that he does not get more attention on these boards ....

Asbel ran 3'36.0 in eldoret & soon after a 3'26.6 at sea-level & commented that the altitude was tough

a ball doesn't have to deal with reduced aerobic metabolism

don't be too fooled by that run

lotta observers said he ran on the line/inside on the curve & not dq'ed, albeit difficult to tell from vid

he was a notorious line-runner/inside line, & his fastest sea-level clockings outside of italy were 20.03 & 20.04

his 19.72 with big 1.8 wind is from mureika : 20.00

knock off 0.1+ for the hypoxia & add most of it back for lane-infractions & his run was ~ 19.95 basic which is fair value as he did run a 19.96 in italy

19.95 basic was not run anywhere close upto '79 apart from smith in '68 who probably was worth a 19.6 basic & borzov in '72 easing down to 20.00

200 running was crap from '72 - '79 & mennea didn't have much to beat clockings wise

the real shame was Carl who wouda run 19.6+ if he'd not celebrated in '83 trials - brief vid here :

but not by much at all

exactly what the eurosport commentator said in brussels ~

" with 47 speed he can run a world class 1500, in fact he coud run a world class 800 !!! "

Dead Nike Lunar Forever 2s wrote:An example of this was reports that Geb was doing 6 x 2k @5:05 pace @ +2500m above sea level with something like 4mins rest in between reps. But at his best 2k shape he was really only 4:53-56. So I doubt he would be able to do that training at that altitude with such ease with much regularity. Especially with the calf and achilles problems he had. But I bet it scared the heck out of his rivals.

i hope you are not seriously taking geb's 4'52.8i as his limit in '98 ???

it was a ridiculous 4'45 pace at 600 !!!

didn't get much better by 1k geb thru in 4'48 pace

& you can knock off ~ 3s for indoor/outdoor conversion

he'd run 3'31.7i that year & 12'39 outdoors with huge last km, probably worth 12'36 at even-pace

his 3'31.7i probably worth ~ 3'29-mid outdoors early in '98 & no way he lost that by outdoors

3'29.50 / 12'36.00 ->

4'44.84

geb in '98 was likely in 4'44+ shape in a perfect outdoor race, ~ 10s faster than you are offering

it's no big deal as hicham shouda probably 4'42+ in his 4'44wr shape in perfect even-pace run

re-assess that altitude workout in light of possibility geb at his peak was ~ 4'44+