Is Eliud Kipchoge on the juice?

Clerk wrote:

So given the pattern and culture of the sport, there is no way to assume that Kipchoge is clean, or that the runners and performances you are measuring him against were clean.

Clerk wrote:

Kipchoge is an outlier... And that's the cause for suspicion.

Because in this sport, dopers are far more likely than clean outliers.

I congratulate you to a serious of very informative posts. I do not dispute anything, especially not the suspicion towards outliers.

But there is one thing you have to give to Kipchoge. He has been a consistent outlier in a changing environment wrt doping practices. Either he's better at doping than everyone else, and better at going with the change of acceptable/undetectable practices, or maybe he actually is not on the juice. It is not on me to make the call, obviously.

Mope Dealer wrote:

El Keniano wrote:

Examples? Else please do humanity a favour by killing yourself.

Must have hit pretty close to the mark to get you all riled up like this.

El Falso is a violent doping apologist loon and should be ignored if he can't be treated.

He is so cu(ked and full of self-hate, he actually is pretending to be both Kenyan AND Hispanic!!

what's deal with Kipchoge? wrote:

Any insight into this?

Eliud Kipchoge holds a unique position within the minds of western doping skeptics in that many of them both respect him and believe him to be clean. This is especially notable given that Kipchoge shows a remarkable ability to consistently win marathon majors, - something I believe to be the most difficult distance with which to regularly outperform all other competitors.

Let me make my position clear, I hold huge respect forKipchoge in terms of his ability, approach to training, humble attitude to life and fame, and the positive way he projects distance running to the world.

In the national athletics stadium in Addis Ababa there is a large billboard with the pictures of three Ethiopian WR holders saying “you can be great without doping” In my opinion Eliud Kipchoge is the best example of this amongst Kenyan athletes.

But again I have to admit that without media coverage such as “breaking 2” and other documentary based films in which Kipchoges positive personality traits are highlighted consistently, I would know little about Kipchoge the man.

Regretfully suspicion of East African athletes is further encourage by ignorance of the athlete or their lack of publicised profile or activity between races. This is especially prevalent with the Ethiopian athletes as most do not speak English and do not court media attention (think Almaz Ayana)

This is why we see British pundits supporting their own (Mo Farah) and questioning the performances of other. - basic psychology indicates that friendship requires a moral acceptance of the individual concerned. Most western pundits and athletes know each other very well so no surprises there. It’s much easier to be suspicious of those you do not share friendship with due to differences in language or culture.

In summary, Kipchoge Gives me hope that the hysteria around all East Africans doping has not yet reached the point of no return in the minds of the most biased.

El Keniano wrote:

Conundrum wrote:

No, it was not a death threat just a death wish. I think we both can agree it was a rather inappropriate comment in the context the discussion.

Based upon your other reasonable posts, it was beneath you.

It's the Internet. Such phrases are routine.

If he killed himself after this you would likely be prosecuted, so it is a death threat of sorts. Just because it is the internet doesn't mean you get to say whatever you want.

Sub Max wrote:

No.

He chooses to live like a pauper, runs no more than two marathons a year despite the allure of big city pay outs. He runs, rests, carries out communal chores and reads, that is it. Anyone who meets him is struck by the laser sharp focus of the guy.

I once said the same about Lance Armstrong.

True this, sadly wrote:

you walked into this one wrote:

There is no way to know.

These are words to live by. They should be the motto of these boards.

As the psychologist Danny Kahneman says:

"A puzzling limitation of our minds is our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world..."

Oh, there is a way to know! Lie detectors have the technology today that makes them extremely accurate. We need a group who offers the testing free of charge and this way the athletes can verify their performances. Many a Kenyan won't go near the device..

This is a short list compared to all American T&F athletes who have been busted. Should we therefore say that all American T&F athletes are dirty?

With the number of Kenyans being busted each week it looks like Kipchoge will be last man standing.

If Kipchoge is clean ask yourselves how fast would he run if he was doped. Of course it would be well under his present mark - probably by several minutes, because a 3% gain - which isn't a lot, since some estimates of doping benefits are as high as 20% - would put his doped mark as being well in excess of 6 minutes better than his clean mark. So, 1.55ish sounds reasonable. Now, what planet are we on again?

Sorry - careless calculation. About 3-4 minutes better.

Livstrong7 wrote:

Sorry - careless calculation. About 3-4 minutes better.

20% or 3%?

From the NYT story:

It is impossible, of course, for any athlete of Kipchoge’s caliber to avoid the dark cloud of doping. Dozens of Kenyan runners have tested positive for banned performance-enhancing drugs in recent years. Kipchoge, though, has a clean record, and by now he can anticipate the questions and is adamant that he has never cheated.

“I always tell people that this is a really simple deal: Work hard,” he said. “If you work hard, follow what’s required and set your priorities right, then you can really perform without taking shortcuts. If you’re taking shortcuts, you can’t be free.”

Bedford, the London Marathon director, said, “In the eyes of people who know and understand the sport, there is no doubt at all that he is anything other than clean, legitimate and honest.”

@JustAmazed

3% is a conservative estimate of the advantage given by doping. Some estimates are as high as 20%, depending of course on the programme. Can we believe Kipchoge could turn out a 1.57-58 marathon - doped, since the assumption is his latest mark is clean? How many minutes does that put him ahead of his nearest rivals - who themselves may well be doped? That isn't an outlier. We don't have a term for it.

Kipchoge is a huge talent and an excellent dope responder. The Bolt of marathoning.

Though heavily doped, he has that "freak of nature" air to him that makes people think he's legitimate. Contrast this to someone like Ramzi who seemed more like a "regular dude" who was then loaded with drugs -- NO ONE believed it.

KIpchoge won't test positive, but the systemic doping of Kenya will one day be laid bare. Kipchoge will be viewed in the same way we view the Chinese women. Records stay on the books, but wink-wink-nudge-nudge.

If you just assume that every top athlete for the last few decades is dirty then you don’t have to do this mental took mashing.

Who cares! Just enjoy the show!

Alan

Alis Landale wrote:

Kipchoge will be viewed in the same way we view the Chinese women.

Just no.

Go Eliud! Go Kenya! :D

But the deniers go through agonies trying to maintain their heroes are clean. Well, that, too, is a show.

well actually wrote:

El Keniano wrote:

It's the Internet. Such phrases are routine.

If he killed himself after this you would likely be prosecuted, so it is a death threat of sorts. Just because it is the internet doesn't mean you get to say whatever you want.

Agreed. That was way beyond necessary to post such a comment. I have no clue who you are, but if I were you I'd be retracting it quickly and making an apology, a big one. That was no too bright.