Let me play devil's advocate about Lagat.
Wouldn't Lagat's present domination in his 40s (if assuming clean now) support his being clean back in the day when younger? If likely he doped then to be on El G's heels, then no way he can be clean today ?
I think what happens in the shadows would probably surprise even the most cynical people on here... lots of $ and power to protect the heros..
Watch this race. Unreal. Specifically watch after he finishes...not even tired!!!
skeptical? wrote:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XvCsj7eJKKAWatch this race. Unreal. Specifically watch after he finishes...not even tired!!!
neither is the second place guy......
Look at Steve Cram after his WR - not looking tired either:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXn6fbdsFKMSorry but whether someone looks tired after a middle distance race should not be a method to evaluate doping allegations - period!
The only reason anyone thinks he was clean is because for a generation now, when you were a high school freshman, running the 1600 for your track team, you browsed the internet and found him, and he became your hero.
The dude was dirty as hell. So was everyone in the 90s. There's a reason its known as the EPO era. I don't believe in "freaks of human nature" and I certainly don't believe we had three at the same time in Komen, Geb, and El G.
El Guerrouj was probably clean, but I cannot prove it. Only Allah knows.
Anyway the point is - did you see the recent result of the World Juniors in Amsterdam? A 15 year old East African (can't remember if Kenyan or Ugandan) ran around 27:25 for 10,000 track! Do you think he doped? Highly unlikely, right?
Those Juniors around 16 - 18 who are well under 28 minutes for 10,000 at that young age, with progression, will develop into a future generation of sub 27 minutes runners for 10,000. It is a logical progression.
Flashback to my time in Eldoret and Iten (2009) many International caliber Euro athletes, like Kamel Maase (Netherlands) were always amazed when kids around 9-10 years old could keep up and run with them for distances of up to 5km and sometimes longer, despite sometimes running at around 3.45 minutes per km pace (6 minutes per mile). Those kids would be running barefoot and sometimes in flip flops! Saw it, I was there.
The level of natural talent in East Africa is there, but people on these boards assume that to reach the highest levels requires doping.
Do you think Chris Froome doped to win his recent Tour de France?
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El Guerrouj grew up in a town near the Morocco - Algeria border. His family always had enough food to eat because they were shopkeepers, but they were not rich, by conventional standards.
Also, back then, Hicham's oral hygiene habits may not have been the best. During his career as a runner, he did not focus on his teeth, but once retired he has taken action and hence the braces later in life. It is a result of pragmatics, not something sinister, as some people have insinuated.
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Ghost1 wrote:
El Guerrouj was probably clean, but I cannot prove it. Only Allah knows.
No, he was most definitely not probably clean. He was probably doping.
And Allah doesn't exist.
Ghost1 wrote:
Anyway the point is - did you see the recent result of the World Juniors in Amsterdam? A 15 year old East African (can't remember if Kenyan or Ugandan) ran around 27:25 for 10,000 track! Do you think he doped? Highly unlikely, right?
Yeah, he's not 15.
Ghost1 wrote:
The level of natural talent in East Africa is there, but people on these boards assume that to reach the highest levels requires doping.
And the drugs are there too. What rock have you been living under the past 2 years?
Ghost1 wrote:
Do you think Chris Froome doped to win his recent Tour de France?
Obviously.
nobody.here.knows.what. they.are talking about. THE END!
RevolutionaryThinker wrote:
Some say he did, some say he didn't, but with Kiprop's potential to take down his 18-year-old record, I think it's time we ask this question again:
https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=1915626&page=1What do his records mean for distance running? What, if he gets it, will Kiprop's?
Even if you, El Gee Whiz, posted pictures and video of your doping activities, the fanboys would not believe you.
El Gee Whiz wrote:
Dear OP,
I doped.
Sincerely,
El G
ps. This post is real!
He was doping, or DIE!!!!
Ghost1 wrote:
El Guerrouj is a God Fearing Muslim and we have no evidence he ever resorted to doping.
His workouts, especially at moderate altitude in Ifrane (1600- 2000 +) were legendary and he really pushed the envelope.
He was an outlier in terms of being able to withstand phenomenal amounts of training loads without breaking down.
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Part of the muslim religion is to be a man, be a leader, be successful or you are a disgrace. Some people might take it the wrong way and dope, you know so that they don't get a second place finish.
hehateme wrote:
What is wrong with you people!? He does NOT identify as a doper, please have some respect
There is no doubt he used PEDs. What wrong with anyone who does not admit that doping has been going on in track for about 20 years.
Every running record is dirty and every elite athlete uses and this has been the truth for about 20 years, probably longer. Since 1985 is probably more accurate.
Please.stop.Mobot.anyone!!! wrote:
Uneducated wrote:This isn't logical reasoning, but El G was my childhood hero, so its hard for me to think that he did dope. But every child's dreams are crushed eventually, so I suppose it is possible...
He never tested positive.
Marco Pantani never tested positive:
During the 2001 Giro d'Italia, a syringe containing traces of insulin was found in Pantani's room. Pantani claimed that the insulin had been planted and that he did not stay in the room that night.[60] In 2002, he was banned for eight months by the Italian Cycling Federation, but he later won an appeal due to an absence of proof.[34][61]
In 2006, two years after his death, Pantani was linked to the Operación Puerto doping case. According to documentation released by Spanish radio network Cadena SER, Pantani was allegedly given the code name "PTNI" by Eufemiano Fuentes, with a detailed program in 2003, his last season, including EPO, growth hormone, Insulin, Levothroid and IGF-1.[62] Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera indicated that he was administered over 40,000 units of EPO, seven doses of growth hormone, thirty doses of anabolic steroids and four doses of hormones used to treat menopause.[63] In 2006 Jesús Manzano, a Spanish professional road racing cyclist whose statements led the Guardia Civil to conduct the Operación Puerto investigation, disclosed in an interview with French television channel France 3 that Pantani was a client of Eufemiano Fuentes.[64]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Pantani
Lance Armstrong and Marion Jones never tested postive too!
RevolutionaryThinker wrote:
Some say he did, some say he didn't, but with Kiprop's potential to take down his 18-year-old record, I think it's time we ask this question again:
https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=1915626&page=1What do his records mean for distance running? What, if he gets it, will Kiprop's?
Give me my gold medal....
The winners of races are never tired. Everyone else in the race is usually on the floor gasping for air, the winners are always galloping towards fans or picking up the other competitors off the floor or doing push-ups or dancing. Except the 400m world championship last year when that dude had to be stretchered off.
dumb argument wrote:
skeptical? wrote:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XvCsj7eJKKAWatch this race. Unreal. Specifically watch after he finishes...not even tired!!!
neither is the second place guy......
Look at Steve Cram after his WR - not looking tired either:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXn6fbdsFKMSorry but whether someone looks tired after a middle distance race should not be a method to evaluate doping allegations - period!
rowberringer wrote:
The winners of races are never tired. Everyone else in the race is usually on the floor gasping for air, the winners are always galloping towards fans or picking up the other competitors off the floor or doing push-ups or dancing. Except the 400m world championship last year when that dude had to be stretchered off.
dumb argument wrote:neither is the second place guy......
Look at Steve Cram after his WR - not looking tired either:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXn6fbdsFKMSorry but whether someone looks tired after a middle distance race should not be a method to evaluate doping allegations - period!
Either that or pretty much they all take.. Even Cram and even fill in the blank. It always amazes me that people that run have not figured it out.
Change your thought process. Instead of innocent until guilty. Guilty based on common sense. Again I have a serious $10,000 challenge to all elite runners to take a test, not the fake WADA test. A kind of bio profile on amphetamine and EPO type drugs. Checking for indicators not specific drugs.
dumb argument wrote:
skeptical? wrote:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XvCsj7eJKKAWatch this race. Unreal. Specifically watch after he finishes...not even tired!!!
neither is the second place guy......
Look at Steve Cram after his WR - not looking tired either:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXn6fbdsFKMSorry but whether someone looks tired after a middle distance race should not be a method to evaluate doping allegations - period!
Of course it should. If you don't dope, you'll look tired, so if you don't look tired, you dope.
Simple contrapositive.
ISBN wrote:
Of all the athletes who never tested positive, EL G is, for me, the most obviously doped athlete in history.
1) he ran at the height of the EPO era when there was no testing at all until 2000, and after that we know the testing was poor and unreliable until after he retired.
2) He was Moroccan and the majority of his peers and training partners were found to have doped. The idea that all Moroccans dope apart from the one who was head and shoulders above all others, is inconceivable.
3) The times he ran ( and fellow dopers like Lagat and Ngeny) were far beyond the historical rate of progression in their events. The times they ran aren't really being approached even today, apart from an athlete who competes for a nation that has had no random testing until this year, whose federation has been proven to be corrupt and whose agent/ coach has recently been arrested for possession and distribution of PEDs.
4) EL G ran fast times, close to WR times, not once or twice during a 2 or 3 year peak period, but on a regular, fort nightly basis, throughout a season, for many seasons. His rate of recovery has never been seen before or since. It was super human.
5) Never ran competitively over 800m and had a very slow pb, 1:47, despite clearly being able to run much faster. Perhaps, like Lagat, he wasn't capable of running the 1:43 that he should have been able to, and didn't want the world to see that discrepancy between what a 3:26 athlete should run 800 and what he actually could have. OTT endurance with inferior 400/800 speed.
6) braces worn late in career.
7) showing total lack of fatigue at end of WR runs.
He was as guilty as hell!
Most of these are good points. Ngeny was in fact caught after winning the Oly 1500 in 2000, but "...for the good of the sport," he was told that he could keep the gold if stopped doping, etc. and his performances began dropping, with the capper being the "car accident" story. From '87 to now, right now, Kiprop obviously included, has been a cruel hoax when it comes to most of the world's top performers. The E. Africans have never had to put up with out of season testing and have enjoyed a political situation that has allowed many third world athletes and teams in a number of sports to cheat, cheat, and cheat some more. It's not guaranteed that the sport will recover when the depth of this garbage is finally revealed. The true interest in long term training and competition was killed in Europe, Japan, many other places due to the filthy scam started by Dr. Gabriele Rosa and his "aid" to the "poor" Kenyans three decades ago.
Before 1985 for sure-per one of their sprinters in the early 1970's the Russians were already requiring their sprinters who wanted to compete on their national team to take steroids. That's probably how Valery Borzov came out of nowhere- and the use of EPO's with the Russians until they were recently busted.
Why don't people refer to anti-life instead of pro-choice?