PK FIYUR wrote:
quite worrying
Oh but Haile is exempt because he's a nice guy.
Mainly because he's not Kenyan
PK FIYUR wrote:
quite worrying
Oh but Haile is exempt because he's a nice guy.
Mainly because he's not Kenyan
I try to explain, about what I know.
1) Remember that our discussion is Always about the effects of EPO for one well identified category of runners : top in the world, born, living and training in altitude. I NEVER said EPO didn't work with Chinese of 1993. However, hearing the stories about the "Ma Armada" from somebody training with them in 1993, I have some doubt about the use of EPO by Wang Junxia, while I think all the other athletes used EPO, or something similar.
The history of Wang Junxia is totally different from the history of the other athletes, including Qu Yunxia, who was the best together Wang Junxia.
While Qu and the other athletes of the Group were the product of more than 5 years of hard training all together, Wang Junxia was not part of the same Group, and was recruited by Ma Juren after having notice that there was a girl, 18 years old, winning local competitions against boys. He went to recruit her, and after less than 6 months she became World Junior Champion of 10000m, in 1992. The next year she started the season running a Marathon in 2:24, and bettered a lot of WR after only 18 months of training with Ma Juren.
So, we can suppose she was a super talented athlete, far from the level of the other teammates : don't forget that, when she ran 29'31", the 3rd athlete in the race ran over 31', and was lapped after less than 8 km.
2) I never went to compare the Chinese of today with the Chinese of 23 years ago. My example was not for comparing two different situations, and two different levels of talent : was simply an example for showing, and explaining, that the widespread idea that the main effect of altitude training is the enhancement of Hct and number of RBC, when we go to analyze the results in competition, is not correct. The "responders" don't have any enhancement in these values, or, in any case, not all "responders" ; and, in opposite way, many athletes having a clear increase in their values, are not able to improve their performances.
This means that, for "responders", the effect of altitude training is in something different from the level of Hct and Hb, and, on the other side, that the enhancement of Hct and Hb don't have any influence on the performances. You need Always to remember that our final goal is not to raise the level of Hct, but is to coach athletes for running faster.
3) About the boy 8 years old, I hope you are so clever to understand this was a way for explaining how the idea of "well trained elite athletes" that researchers have is very far from the use we can have of these two definitions (Elite, and Well trained) when we speak about training, and level, of professional athletes. You can't don't know that a normal car is very different from a Formula One, also if the technical principles can be the same.
4) About Rita Jeptoo, I have two Keys for reading what happened.
a) Rita started her activity with me in Italy in 1999, when was 18 only. She didn't seem talented for long distances, she started running competition of 5 km on road and cross Country. That year, I had in Italy two Marathon runners of international level (for that period...), Ruth Kutol and Florence Barsosio (winner of Paris). Rita, very Young, trained with them, and showed a mental talent for long distances, so I decided to try to change her training. She agreed to prepare Marathon, her first Marathon was in 2003. In Kenya, she was in the camp that I ran using my money (not having any support by any management), and in 2005 ran 2:24'32" in WCh (Helsinki) contributing to win the World Marathon Cup for Kenya. She was for all the next winter in the camp, and improved dramatically : I never saw in my life some athlete more tough in training. One day, for example, she had a "Special Block" with 4 km easy + HM in 1h11'40" in the morning, and 10 km in 36'40" + 6 times 2000m on track (2' recovery) in 6'20" > 6'12", for a total of 47 km.
She was invited in Boston, but there was a problem with her Visa. Only on Saturday evening (Boston was on Monday) the US Embassy could give the Passport back, when already we didn't have any hope to go to compete.
The management changed the flight, she could fly arriving Boston 6 HOURS BEFORE THE RACE : she didn't sleep, went to the start, and won with 2:23'38", RUNNING THE LAST 12,195 METERS FASTER THAN ALL THE MEN IN THE RACE (if you don't believe, go to see the splits of the race).
Was clear she had already the possibility to run in 2:21' or less, with a normal approach, and with good pacers.
What did happen after this ? She got married, and the husband wanted to be her coache, without really having some knowledge about training for Marathon (he was 800m runner). She left the camp, and trained in Mosoriot, with the husband. She didn't improve, and at the end of the season decided to have a baby.
She started again in 2011, running 2:28:09 in Rotterdam, then, at the end of the year, ran Frankfurt in 2:25:44 for the 5th position.
In 2012, she ran Boston in 2:35:53, and finally understood that, with the husband as coach, her career was over. She joined the Group of Claudio Berardelli, and started to train with Prisca Jeptoo and some pacer.
Claudio himself told me was surprised by the motivation, and the ability to work very hard, she showed with him. And she had the big skip of quality, arriving 2nd in Chicago with 2:22:04 (intrinsically worse than the 2:23:38 of Boston 6 years before...).
She became more professional, having big motivation and good technical support, and in 2013, after winning Boston in 2:26, won Chicago running 2:19:57. Nobody could be surprised of this result, looking at her training approach.
In 2014, the big victory in Boston (2:18:57), in a race where ALL THE BEST RUNNERS were very fast, because of the pace of Shalan Flanagan (same situation of Boston 2011 for men : not because the wind, but because the pace of Ryan Hall). So, no surprise at all.
She was caught in a OOC test in Kenya at half of September. If doping is so effective, why she ran only 2:24:35 in Chicago, when already doped ?
So, what did happen in the mind of Rita before Chicago ?
She was in competition for the jackpot of 500,000 USD, and somebody purposed her some illegal support, explaining she needed to be sure to win Chicago in order to have the money. Rita had skiatic problems from the end of July, and her training was not very good, so supposed that, trying to take EPO, could replace the training she didn't do.
The dream of so much money changed her mind, that became weak for that reason.
And she won a "poor" edition of Chicago, in perfect weather conditions (the first 3 men under 2:05 : Kipchoge 2:04:11, Kitwara 2:04:28 and Chumba 2:04:32, while Rita ran 2:24:35 against Mare Dibaba (2:25:37) and a Florence Kiplagat in bad condition (2:25:57) for a problem in her back during the last 3 weeks of training).
So, which advantage EPO gave her, if she ran a race almost 5 minutes slower than her PB ? Of course, you can argue she was already doped when she ran in Boston at the beginning of the season, but the fact is we have ONE PROOF of doping after July, NO PROOVES of doping before that date, and for me (who knows Rita very well) there is not surprise at all looking at her performances BEFORE being caught for EPO.
You can remain of your idea, and I remain of my idea. However, I explained what I think and what I know, using the logic and not stereotypes already present in your mind.
rekrunner wrote:
Is one of your issues that "affinity" is not the right word to describe these observed differences in oxygen saturation?
My issue (don't know about rjm) is that the postulated "INCREASE of affinity between Hb and O2" implies that altitude training causes a mutation in Hb (or in O2). From all we know today: this is not true.
Renato Canova wrote:
I try to explain, about what I know.
1) Remember that our discussion is Always about the effects of EPO for one well identified category of runners : top in the world, born, living and training in altitude. I NEVER said EPO didn't work with Chinese of 1993. However, hearing the stories about the "Ma Armada" from somebody training with them in 1993, I have some doubt about the use of EPO by Wang Junxia, while I think all the other athletes used EPO, or something similar.
The history of Wang Junxia is totally different from the history of the other athletes, including Qu Yunxia, who was the best together Wang Junxia.
While Qu and the other athletes of the Group were the product of more than 5 years of hard training all together, Wang Junxia was not part of the same Group, and was recruited by Ma Juren after having notice that there was a girl, 18 years old, winning local competitions against boys. He went to recruit her, and after less than 6 months she became World Junior Champion of 10000m, in 1992. The next year she started the season running a Marathon in 2:24, and bettered a lot of WR after only 18 months of training with Ma Juren.
So, we can suppose she was a super talented athlete, far from the level of the other teammates : don't forget that, when she ran 29'31", the 3rd athlete in the race ran over 31', and was lapped after less than 8 km.
2) I never went to compare the Chinese of today with the Chinese of 23 years ago. My example was not for comparing two different situations, and two different levels of talent : was simply an example for showing, and explaining, that the widespread idea that the main effect of altitude training is the enhancement of Hct and number of RBC, when we go to analyze the results in competition, is not correct. The "responders" don't have any enhancement in these values, or, in any case, not all "responders" ; and, in opposite way, many athletes having a clear increase in their values, are not able to improve their performances.
This means that, for "responders", the effect of altitude training is in something different from the level of Hct and Hb, and, on the other side, that the enhancement of Hct and Hb don't have any influence on the performances. You need Always to remember that our final goal is not to raise the level of Hct, but is to coach athletes for running faster.
3) About the boy 8 years old, I hope you are so clever to understand this was a way for explaining how the idea of "well trained elite athletes" that researchers have is very far from the use we can have of these two definitions (Elite, and Well trained) when we speak about training, and level, of professional athletes. You can't don't know that a normal car is very different from a Formula One, also if the technical principles can be the same.
4) About Rita Jeptoo, I have two Keys for reading what happened.
a) Rita started her activity with me in Italy in 1999, when was 18 only. She didn't seem talented for long distances, she started running competition of 5 km on road and cross Country. That year, I had in Italy two Marathon runners of international level (for that period...), Ruth Kutol and Florence Barsosio (winner of Paris). Rita, very Young, trained with them, and showed a mental talent for long distances, so I decided to try to change her training. She agreed to prepare Marathon, her first Marathon was in 2003. In Kenya, she was in the camp that I ran using my money (not having any support by any management), and in 2005 ran 2:24'32" in WCh (Helsinki) contributing to win the World Marathon Cup for Kenya. She was for all the next winter in the camp, and improved dramatically : I never saw in my life some athlete more tough in training. One day, for example, she had a "Special Block" with 4 km easy + HM in 1h11'40" in the morning, and 10 km in 36'40" + 6 times 2000m on track (2' recovery) in 6'20" > 6'12", for a total of 47 km.
She was invited in Boston, but there was a problem with her Visa. Only on Saturday evening (Boston was on Monday) the US Embassy could give the Passport back, when already we didn't have any hope to go to compete.
The management changed the flight, she could fly arriving Boston 6 HOURS BEFORE THE RACE : she didn't sleep, went to the start, and won with 2:23'38", RUNNING THE LAST 12,195 METERS FASTER THAN ALL THE MEN IN THE RACE (if you don't believe, go to see the splits of the race).
Was clear she had already the possibility to run in 2:21' or less, with a normal approach, and with good pacers.
What did happen after this ? She got married, and the husband wanted to be her coache, without really having some knowledge about training for Marathon (he was 800m runner). She left the camp, and trained in Mosoriot, with the husband. She didn't improve, and at the end of the season decided to have a baby.
She started again in 2011, running 2:28:09 in Rotterdam, then, at the end of the year, ran Frankfurt in 2:25:44 for the 5th position.
In 2012, she ran Boston in 2:35:53, and finally understood that, with the husband as coach, her career was over. She joined the Group of Claudio Berardelli, and started to train with Prisca Jeptoo and some pacer.
Claudio himself told me was surprised by the motivation, and the ability to work very hard, she showed with him. And she had the big skip of quality, arriving 2nd in Chicago with 2:22:04 (intrinsically worse than the 2:23:38 of Boston 6 years before...).
She became more professional, having big motivation and good technical support, and in 2013, after winning Boston in 2:26, won Chicago running 2:19:57. Nobody could be surprised of this result, looking at her training approach.
In 2014, the big victory in Boston (2:18:57), in a race where ALL THE BEST RUNNERS were very fast, because of the pace of Shalan Flanagan (same situation of Boston 2011 for men : not because the wind, but because the pace of Ryan Hall). So, no surprise at all.
She was caught in a OOC test in Kenya at half of September. If doping is so effective, why she ran only 2:24:35 in Chicago, when already doped ?
So, what did happen in the mind of Rita before Chicago ?
She was in competition for the jackpot of 500,000 USD, and somebody purposed her some illegal support, explaining she needed to be sure to win Chicago in order to have the money. Rita had skiatic problems from the end of July, and her training was not very good, so supposed that, trying to take EPO, could replace the training she didn't do.
The dream of so much money changed her mind, that became weak for that reason.
And she won a "poor" edition of Chicago, in perfect weather conditions (the first 3 men under 2:05 : Kipchoge 2:04:11, Kitwara 2:04:28 and Chumba 2:04:32, while Rita ran 2:24:35 against Mare Dibaba (2:25:37) and a Florence Kiplagat in bad condition (2:25:57) for a problem in her back during the last 3 weeks of training).
So, which advantage EPO gave her, if she ran a race almost 5 minutes slower than her PB ? Of course, you can argue she was already doped when she ran in Boston at the beginning of the season, but the fact is we have ONE PROOF of doping after July, NO PROOVES of doping before that date, and for me (who knows Rita very well) there is not surprise at all looking at her performances BEFORE being caught for EPO.
You can remain of your idea, and I remain of my idea. However, I explained what I think and what I know, using the logic and not stereotypes already present in your mind.
given the fitness of rita jeptoo post injury, it looks like the epo did hlp her. lets say youre right and she only cheated for that short period, she still deserves a lifetime ban in my opinion. the penalty she faces is far too lenient for a deeliberate cheater.
lol i remember that thread, good times
rjm33 wrote:
I also am looking forward to Renato showing us all some 8 year old Kenyan 2:40 marathon runners also.....when will that be happening?
About this: we do know that Haile ran 2:50 at age 18, however this was at altitude (Addis almost 8000'), so his fitness was around this 2:40.
Apparently in Kenya there are many children far better at the marathon than Haile!
More confusion in Kenya it seems as Kiprotich claims "drug testers regularly visit the camp unannounced to collect samples" so who's right?
source :
Highly.....you seem from your posts that you have a good knowledge in this area...Please help me as I now think I may be going insane....
Did Renato just state that he thought Wang Junxia was clean in 1993 and was just a great natural talent from China that just happened to be better in a week of running than all Kenyan and Ethiopian women in the last 23 years?
I can't tell when Renato is joking because he previously stated that Wang Junxia had 2 hearts......remember that one! ....and we thought he was serious.
And he just told us that he was joking about actual 8 year old 2:40 Kenyan marathoners!......it was just an expression for comparison of big differences in physiology....and he does not really mean separate species....it is just an expression.....of how incredibly different their physiology is....
Here is some history: Dr. Gabriele Rosa came to Kenya around 1991 and set up training camps....his son Frederico Rosa runs 5 training camps today in Kenya. One of his training camps had Coach Claudio Berardelli, who was coach to Rita Jeptoo and Priscah Jeptoo (Olympic silver in marathon in 2012, nyc marathon winner, and ran a 1:05 half marathon and ran away from Tirunesh Dibaba and Meseret Defar like they were high school girls while doing it). She was Rita's training partner.
Here are some quotes from an Athletics Illustrated Oct.6,2015 article from Frederico Rosa when he terminated the contract of Claudio Berardelli because he "wasn't on top" of things at his training camp..."We do not say that Claudio is involved in the problem, and we know he has nothing to do with it, but he was not able to pay enough attention to his own athletes" Rosa said.
Claudio Berardelli was coach to 3 athletes that all had weak mind disease.They are: Rita Jeptoo, 2:18 marathoner(EPO positive), Matthew Kisorio 58min 1/2marathoner(anabolic steroid nandrolone positive) and Agatha Jeruto 800m runner (anabolic steroid norandrosterone positive).
I absolutely think that Renato is correct when he said that the cause of Rita Jeptoo's weak mind was.... "the dream of so much money (the $500,000 WMM bonus) changed her mind, that became weak for that reason."
It is just another coincidence and very bad luck that Claudio Berardelli would have 3 of his athletes have positive doping tests and weak minds at his training camp, right?
My theory is that the weak mind disease is contagious and there was an outbreak at Claudio Berardelli's camp. Weak mind disease is very common on Wall Street and very, very, very common here at the LRC forum.
Trust me Highly B. .............I'm a doctor.................................
Claudio just had very bad luck......just like Paula Radcliffe had very bad luck with 3 "suspicious" blood tests.
So Highly B. ....I am just an insane- conspiracy theory- internet weirdo...... .....right?
Hey, Highly B... I found this to be interesting reading for background history
on Dr. Francesco Conconi if you are interested......
rjm33 wrote:
Here is some history: Dr. Gabriele Rosa came to Kenya around 1991 and set up training camps....his son Frederico Rosa runs 5 training camps today in Kenya. One of his training camps had Coach Claudio Berardelli, who was coach to Rita Jeptoo and Priscah Jeptoo (Olympic silver in marathon in 2012, nyc marathon winner, and ran a 1:05 half marathon and ran away from Tirunesh Dibaba and Meseret Defar like they were high school girls while doing it). She was Rita's training partner.
Here are some quotes from an Athletics Illustrated Oct.6,2015 article from Frederico Rosa when he terminated the contract of Claudio Berardelli because he "wasn't on top" of things at his training camp..."We do not say that Claudio is involved in the problem, and we know he has nothing to do with it, but he was not able to pay enough attention to his own athletes" Rosa said.
Claudio Berardelli was coach to 3 athletes that all had weak mind disease.They are: Rita Jeptoo, 2:18 marathoner(EPO positive), Matthew Kisorio 58min 1/2marathoner(anabolic steroid nandrolone positive) and Agatha Jeruto 800m runner (anabolic steroid norandrosterone positive).
I absolutely think that Renato is correct when he said that the cause of Rita Jeptoo's weak mind was.... "the dream of so much money (the $500,000 WMM bonus) changed her mind, that became weak for that reason."
It is just another coincidence and very bad luck that Claudio Berardelli would have 3 of his athletes have positive doping tests and weak minds at his training camp, right?
My theory is that the weak mind disease is contagious and there was an outbreak at Claudio Berardelli's camp. Weak mind disease is very common on Wall Street and very, very, very common here at the LRC forum.
Trust me Highly B. .............I'm a doctor.................................
Claudio just had very bad luck......just like Paula Radcliffe had very bad luck with 3 "suspicious" blood tests.
So Highly B. ....I am just an insane- conspiracy theory- internet weirdo...... .....right?
Hahaha
The chickens come home to roost, rjm.
'Sources told the Nation that the two had their passports taken on Friday before being summoned to DCI headquarters on Monday.
"The issue we are handling is sensitive...I am just doing my work so let me finish with them...then you can talk to them," said the officer who declined to give his name.
"We have not arrested them as such but we just want to interrogate them," he added.'
The Sports Integrity Iniative:
"Part one of the programme interviewed Noah Busienei (pictured), estranged husband of Rita Jeptoo, who was issued with a two-year ban in February this year after testing positive for erythropoietin (EPO). He blamed both Athletics Kenya and Jeptoo’s Italian agent for her ban. “They gave us multivitaminsâ€, says Busienei in the documentary (full video below). “They gave us some…I don’t understand what it was, but they said it would help us in training. He said it would give us water. If we want to go for a long run there is special water. I asked what is the special water for? He said the special water is good for our bodies. I have to blame two people, three people. Claudio [Claudio Baradelli, Jeptoo’s coach] and Federico [Federico Rosa, Jeptoo’s agent]. And also Athletics Kenya, because I spoke with them and they refused to take the information.â€