3 more Ethiopians bite the dust and are suspended - 1 appears to be 2:09 marathoner Sintayehu Mergia

jjjjj wrote:

of course there is nothing on the internet about two hearts, but that's a red herring anyway, since we have seen the recent story that she wrote a letter in 1995 protesting Ma Junren's feeding them drugs and doing other things.

Will this be another story where they give a specific # of athletes and then we never see a number of names, as they did before World's? I'm still waiting to hear about most of those 28 or so supposed names of dopers, or even to hear an explanation for why we didn't hear them. All bribes?

So, when I go to troll writing some strange thing, everybody reacts (correctly), but when there is something strange about doping, nobody tries some explanation ?

Of course there are not people with two heart, like there are not runners with 4 legs. This is clear to everybody (what is not clear is to compare the old Chinese runners with the example I did about Chinese before Asian Games 2an 014, and for people not understanding, some stupid answer can be enough).

What I say, how is it possible that nobody, involved in the CULTURE of doping, goes to point that this Meldonium doesn't have a clear effect, since is used by athletes of every type of sport, so nobody really understand what it can produce ?

At Yesterday (but in the future the list becomes very much longer) the athletes caught for Meldonium are the following :

Olga Abramova (Ukraine) biathlon

Artem Tyshchenko (Ukraine) bronze in WJCh - biathlon

Eduard Vorganov (Russia) cyclism

Abeba Aregawi (Ethiopia - Sweden) 1500m

Endeshaw Negesse (Ethiopia) - Marathon 2:04'52

Ekaterina Bobrova (Russia) - Figure skating on ice

Alexander Markin (Russia) - National Team for Volley

Semion Elistratov (Russia) - Short Track Ice Speed

Pavel Kulizhenkov (Russia) - Speed skating - WR Holder 500m in 33.98

Nobody can have some doubt that, if used by all the discipline, this doping DOESN'T WORK for any of them, and its assumption depends on a wrong mentality of athletes of every discipline, WHO THINK NOT POSSIBLE TO REACH THE BEST WITHOUT EXTERNAL AID ?

I want clarify my position, once and forever :

1) Everybody looks at external aid, legal or illegal, has the same mentality, and is POTENTIALLY a cheater

2) I don't justify any kind of doping, also if at the moment is legal (for example, creatine)

3) Under ethic point of view, ALL the athletes positive to something must be banned (but using some graduation depending on the substance)

4) Under PRACTIC point of view, there are a lot of doping substances that DON'T HAVE ANY EFFECT ON THE PERFORMANCES, and that are taken by athletes because this is a fashion. The real "scientific" reason is "if antidoping put it in the list, and many athletes are using, is because is effective, so I try myself to use the same system, hoping not to be caught".

This is FASHION, nothing of scientific behind this.

Do you really think that a medicine created for diminishing some disease, if used by people not only in perfect physical shape, but with potentiated physiological activity because of hard and proper training, can benefit adding something created for sick people ?

Come on, guys, it's time you start to use your brain, like in the case of two hearts !

Haha this is why I love Canova - he played us all for fools. I am a big Canova fan and even I was reading this 2 heart post and thinking 'is this for real? Has Canova lost the plot??'

The funny thing however is that for years to come there will be idiots on here who say 'don't trust this guy - he tried to tell us it wasn't doping it was 2 hearts!'

Keep up the good work coach!

"I don't deny that with blood doping it's possible to enhance the blood values.

I deny that this is a fundamental point for the performance of top level

Read more:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=7083554&page=1#ixzz42OcxVe9c

"

I think this can end the argument of 'Renato says drugs don't work' - he has made his position quite clear. They 'work' for improving the blood values but the blood values do not work for improving performance (in his opinion and experience)

So when you want to disparage the coach you should be writing that Canova believes improved Heamatocrit & Rbc count doesn't work for top athletes not that he believes epo and blood doping don't work for top athletes (which is to tell only part of the story)

Maybe Ed Ceaser can also issue a retraction for making this claim in his book 2 hours!

In all of the sports you have listed, increased endurance would be of help. Besides, you are focusing only on meldonium which is not looking at the overall picture. It is highly unlikely that all of the athletes listed went to adoctor and were given only meldonium (a drug that many western doctors have not even heard of); they would have most likely been taking other PEDs as well.

I am not sure that you could describe high level atheltes as being "healthy" people either, and the "perfect physical shape" you mention does not exist in reality. The best of the best such as Coe, Bekele, or Geb have all had severe injuries or illnesses that, paradoxically a "normal" person is less likely to have, Elite athletes are pushing their bodies to their limits and anything they can do to stop themselves from breaking down will be of help, including PEDs.

Wang Junxia has admitted to being given PEDs and in a 10000m race she would lap several times the Chinese runners who you say are clean today. This is not exactly a strong argument for drugs developed for "sick" people do not work in "healthy" elite athletes

Don't wait -- everyone can look the names up at the IAAF website. They added about 50 names from last year. The list was updated just a few weeks ago (at least).

pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:

jjjjj wrote:

I'm still waiting to hear about most of those 28 or so supposed names of dopers, or even to hear an explanation for why we didn't hear them. All bribes?

This x 1000.

This is how little the IAAF actually cares about dopers and doping. They throw out a claim as CYA opposite another Seppelt story and do nothing more.

What's more they are under no pressure to do anything to improve. They report to no one and the IOC seems quite satisfied with dopers and doping.

In their list of priorities, protecting the integrity of the sport is last.

Wang has admitted to doping and she doesn't have two hearts.

You have zero credibility after your recent posts. Stop the madness.

And please stop the name calling.

Renato Canova wrote:

So, when I go to troll writing some strange thing, everybody reacts (correctly), but when there is something strange about doping, nobody tries some explanation ?

When you troll about someone having two hearts you get a reaction and when you make ridiculous claims about doping (the top Africans don't dope, it doesn't work on them, etc.), you get a similar reaction. What point are you trying to make?

yyy wrote:

Wang has admitted to doping and she doesn't have two hearts.

You have zero credibility after your recent posts. Stop the madness.

And please stop the name calling.

Please try to keep up

We are speaking about the fact that EPO can enhance the level of Hct and Hb, but for my experience this is not a real factor of improvement.

The example of Chinese athletes regards the fact they improved dramatically their PB after a period of 2 months in altitude at Duoba (2400m), in spite of values that were LOWER than before going altitude. At the same time, athletes increasing their blood values were not able to improve their PB.

This means that it's a false myth the idea that the performances are connected with high blood values.

You speak about Wang Junxia and the other Chinese of Ma Juren. Also in China everybody following athletics knows that were doped, but here we speak SPECIFICALLY of EPO and substances for enhancing the level of Hct and Hb.

Nobody knows (apart Ma Juren) the type of doping the "Ma Armada" took, but I know of sure their blood values were low (I could see in the lab of Duoba, where 4 years ago was organized a clinic about altitude training with the participation of Japanese doctors, and several athletes were tested, the data of the athletes belonging to the second period of Ma Juren, the athletes winning again in 1997), and no one of the athletes had Hct higher than 40, and Hb higher than 13.5.

When the most part of top runners have Hct never higher than 45, and levels of Hb not higher than 16 (many very much lower), why there is this continuous idea that from high Hct and Hb we can have top performances ?

There are too many factors more important than the transportation of Oxygen which are at the base of top performances :

a) The quantity of Oxygen every athlete can catch from the atmosphere, connected with the affinity between Hb and O2

b) The ability to transport more oxygen, using "bigger lorries" (in this case, EPO) but with low speed of the circulation, because there is an increase in the periferal resistance

c) The possibility to transport the same quantity of oxygen, using a higher number of "small lorries" able to circulate faster

d) How many "workers" there are for putting the material on the lorries

e) How many workers there are on the lorry for moving the material from every lorry, giving it to the muscle fibers

f) The total volume of blood, which can increase of about 25% with training, but doesn't increase more than 10% if we add EPO or similar

g) The ability to remove the products of fatigue from the fibers to the blood stream, connected with the velocity of circulation (teherfore, if the velocity decreases because of the increase of viscosity, the ability to remove lactate and the products of fatigue decreases)

h) The psychological approach, more aggressive when the athletes have total confidence in their own strength, not depending on external aids (also legal)

Of sure, I forgot some other factor.

However, it's clear that we can have a lot of combinations of the above factor, creating individual situation of "responders" or not responders to substances having the effects to enhance the level of Hct and Hb.

Put in your mind that we can enhance the level of Hct of 7-8 points in one day, and this doesn't mean the athlete can run faster.

Put also in your mind that, if you take blood to the same athlete, in different positions (standing, seated or laying), with 30' of difference between every sample, we can see difference in Hct of 4 points, and obviously the blood is Always the same.

There are too many factors that changed their importance, depending on the quality of training, and these factors never are considered (probably are not known) by physiologists, who don't have access at the training of the best athletes, and don't know volume, intensity and modulation of the training itself.

Who works with top athletes CLEAN well knows where it's possible to arrive with top talent and hard, smart work, while who doesn't know what these athletes normally do in training can't have any other explanation than "doping", and this is not only a wrong explanation, but is also very sad for all people believing in clean sport, and able to enjoy for the results of every top athletes (in case of coaches, not only their own athletes).

Who loves athletics, can only enjoy for clean results, and is really disappointed when the general image of the athletes doesn't depend on individual behavior, but is generalized in the worst possible way.

c)

I am ahead of u

I appreciate RC posting on training and discussing elites. However, I think we need to show respect for other people, most of whom watched dopers dominate cycling for years and may still be doing so in a new way . Turning around and say this drug or that drug can't work and then giving long lists of factors is starting to seem patronizing. I bet one drug is more effective than another but am I supposed to believe that all these people doped to no effect? And this especially or only true if they are someone who is elite and living in the areas where Canova lived?People are serious and the two hearts post was lame. All drugs are designed for sick people! When was a drug brought to market solely for athletic performance enhancement. This is just starting to sound like a giant rationalization.