fruiter wrote:
I have very similar pr's and found that pure sprint training actually reduced my 800 and mile times compared to when I was running around 60 mpw. Most of the aerobic work was from bike riding or two mile runs and my mile and 800 went down a lot. I would do sprint training and run an all out mile every week or few weeks.
Hmmm, sounds familiar:
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4441985You just need inspiration. Read "Once a Runner" :).
you must have lost that under distance speed from your younger years if sub 5 is so difficult.
There have been so many responses already, haven't had time to read them, this is sure to be an interesting thread. I'm no expert on coaching, but I can relate to frustration at trying different changes of variables, and difficulty and lack of magic in hitting middle distance track paces.
First, on the latter, if you focus too much on the direct distance and paces, and try to force it and it's not working, then it doesn't work. There is something lacking in your training regimen, as I've had this problem before.
What you might be missing in over distance work (the higher mileage you tried) is the "way" it is done. Drew Hunters coach talked about critical velocity recently. It may be that you want to take some advice from that. I seemed to make mile improvements and feel the opposite of what you felt (feeling suddenly magically faster and great in spikes for mile) after distance training where I might have hit critical velocities, in an amateur way. I wasn't trying to fit a formula or training plan, but running and gaining aerobic conditioning, doing some tempos, etc in different trails and venues, and generally just being inspired and visualizing various things on my runs.
Your biomechanics might be lacking, too. Have you ever been seen by a physical therapist?
When I was 19, I had weak inner thighs, on account of never having done isolation exercises to strengthen them. I noticed it during a 5k race and made significant improvements to both my 5k and mile times after improving adductor strength.
A physical therapist was not involved in that, I instigated it on my own. But still it's good to see one.
Do you get enough xc and hilly style distance work in?
Do you do both easy jogs, recovery runs, and harder long runs of various intensity?
Do you ever do doubles?
Those speed benchmarks you mentioned, if you still have them, the fitness I mean (54-55, 2:11) are way sufficient.
This means that for the most part you very likely lack something in over distance conditioning. When I improved my over distance conditioning, my mile times improved.
But this also does not preclude seemingly under distance work, like weight training. Why? Because speed in the mile is not necessarily a linear sum of under speed.
Doing speed work after having an aerobic base is somehow different then just doing speed work without an aerobic conditioning.
And same reason
That's why you might also look at your biomechanics and strength training regimen. It seems you might be underdeveloped here being so skinny.
I've worked on weights for many years, but I think my core (side planks, planks, other challenging matters) could still improve. Many people don't directly train their hip flexors, either.
I recently started doing max dead lifts (big weight, very short rep) and it increased my structural soundness and dramatically improved my ability to do many push-ups.
There are also exercises to improve foot and ankle muscles.
Anyways these are just some tips that worked for me.
With 55 sec quarter speed and 2:11 (which is a little on the slow side for that speed). The girls on my college team most had 59-60 sec quarter speed and had the strength to run 2:10 and 440-44 mile range. There were plenty that were under 4:40 and a few under 4:30 and not a single one of them had 55 sec quarter speed. The workouts were mostly 5k cross country style workouts most of the year and would and we're all high mileage. Two workout a week one always a bigger strength one. Mile repeats 1000 and 800s nothing all together earth shattering just consistency. Seems like you might over think things a little to much and to much pressure on yourself in races and back fires. That is only reason I could see not being able to run under 5
Also, you claim in a later post you ran 50-55 mile weeks of singles and 7:30 pace. Only 7:30 pace? This seems to be too rigid and homogenous of a schedule, while demonstrating clearly that you have organization and dedication. It seems to me that, 1. You need to share more about this distance training you are doing, 2. How it's done in all it's variety is very important, 3. You might need more diversity in your distance training.
Why only one kind of pace? And only singles? And seemingly, only singles of a homogenous kind?
There are many adventures in training you can undertake.
Have you tried training and racing at 5k for road races, 5k-8k for xc, etc?
Also, unless they are lying (calling 6:20 = 6:00), someone who can run 6:00 flat pace for a 10 miler, like another poster mentioned, better as heck run under 5 for the mile, unless they are the older type who is averse to middle distance and has enormous dedication put into distance endurance.
OP, your over distance times and history would give us insight into what you need in over distance training regimens.
If you are only doing 7:30 mile running, and then suddenly, are at 40 second pace and under on the track, what about your body awareness and tools that come with the high five minute paces, the various 6 minute paces?
I forgot to mention that mile repeats, on a track or even outside, can help. 3 or 4 X mile, at 5:20-5:50 pace.
I agree and disagree with the post about intervals. Yes someone who is fading badly towards the end and going out too hard, needs to see the other side of it. But, also, that gives experience. Like, doing mile repeats and slowing down to 6:00 mile. It's not useless. Doing a 2-4 mile run, with a long surge thrown in, in the mid low 6 range, amidst comfortable 7 minute pacing.
elusive dreams wrote:
I eat until I'm 90% full and never stuff myself except for a few times a year when there's some really good dessert at an all-you-can-eat buffet. On the other hand, I've never dieted to lose weight either - there's no point in doing so since I've never weighed over 115 lbs in my life.
I'm not saying to get fat, but if you gained about 15 lbs from your current 108 or 109 lbs, you'd be closer to the typical world class runner weight for your height. Being so much lighter than those guys is something to think about. Those guys would probably get sick and overtrained and underperform greatly if they lost 15 lbs to get to your weight.
(zzzz's downhill mile suggestion):
I'll give it a try sometime this year, but 16 seconds is quite a bit of time to drop. Each second below 5:30 becomes exponentially more difficult for me to take off. The last time I've improved by more than 12 seconds a year was from freshman year in HS (6:07) to sophomore year (5:48).
16 seconds is easy to drop on a good downhill. You could probably drop 30 seconds tomorrow if you found an appropriate downhill. I ran a 4:46 mile on one of the wide dirt trail downhills of my first 50 mile race back in December. It was a bad move (the overaggressiveness in racing led to me to a DNF due to cramps later), but I roll downhills so easily, I didn't realize how fast it was until I looked at the GPS track later. And I'm well into the masters category.
The max I've run consistently was 50-55 MPW in singles for 2 months. Pace was 7:30/mile. First attempt at that resulted in achilles tendinitis, second attempt at it completely killed my speed. At one point, I took a day off, put on my spikes, ran an all-out 400, and ended up with a time that was 10 seconds slower than what I ran the previous year.
So far, what seems to work best for me is playing to my strengths by running low mileage/high intensity and relying on the altitude tent for the endurance. A typical week would be 15 MPW at 7:00 pace with strides at the end of most runs and either a hard interval workout or a time trial every 4-5 days.
50-55 miles per week should be enough, though I wouldn't call that high mileage. I was on the way aggressive side, but I ran 60+ mpw my first week and summer as a runner ever back in high school. Your fairly recent 2:11 is really good for someone just wanting to break 5. Your endurance is very weak, and you are only doing 15 mpw? That's just being lazy if you really want to break 5 for the mile.
wqqqqqqqq and Jesse_Crackhorn are right about training pace. 7:30 pace was too fast for your condition for an everyday pace. Wejo ran that pace and sometimes slower for his everyday runs as a 28:06 10,000 runner. I ran about 7:40 as my everyday pace when I was running 6 mile tempos at under 5:00 pace. I know that are plenty of elites like malmo that rarely trained slower than 6:00 pace, but their aerobic systems are well trained. Yours is not. Dig up the HADD training stuff here to see what kind of effort level you should be doing when you are first developing aerobic strength. You need to go slowly at first to develop aerobic strength. Your complaints about injury and loss of speed when doing more mileage also indicate that you were trying to go too hard in your everyday running.
Jesse_Crackhorn wrote:
Also, unless they are lying (calling 6:20 = 6:00), someone who can run 6:00 flat pace for a 10 miler, like another poster mentioned, better as heck run under 5 for the mile, unless they are the older type who is averse to middle distance and has enormous dedication put into distance endurance.
That was me. I was not lying although I did exaggerate very slightly. My ten mile PR is 1.00.20 run on a fast course but during a marathon training cycle and without any taper.
In this marathon training cycle I have run up to 7 miles at 6.00 or faster solo. I am almost certain I could go under an hour for 10 with a few days taper.
But, yes, to answer the second part of your post, I guess that describes me quite well.
You have the physical tools, honestly you just need a good coach.
I say this as someone who trained myself for many years, hit a plateau, then finally got a coach and broke through the plateau.
Week 1:
M- 6 easy (8:00-8:30), weights and strides
Tu- 3 x mile @ 6:00-6:10 w/ 90s recovery (build to 5 x mile)
W- 4 easy (8:00-8:30), weights and strides
Th- 8 x 200 @ 33-35, easy 200 recovery (build to 12 x 200)
F- 4 easy (8:00-8:30)
Sa- 8, first half easy (8:00-8:30) picking up to 6:45-7:00 pace over the second half
Su- 4 easy (8:00-8:30) or off
Week 2:
M- 6 easy (8:00-8:30), weights and strides
Tu- 4 x 1000 @ 3:35-3:40 (3 min recovery) (build to 6 x 1000)
W- 4 easy (8:00-8:30)
Th- 6 x 400 @ 72-74 (equal time recovery) (build to 10 x 400)
F- 4 easy (8:00-8:30), weights and strides
Sa- hilly 8 mile run, run the uphills hard
Su- 4 easy (8:00-8:30) or off
Try it.
inane commenter wrote:
you must have lost that under distance speed from your younger years if sub 5 is so difficult.
The OP's 400, 300, and 1600 videos were all taken within a year of each other and weren't that long ago. IIRC, the 400 and 300 were taken in Feb '14, and the 1600 vid was taken in January '15. Can't blame you, though, he could probably pass as a high school kid.
zzzz wrote:
16 seconds is easy to drop on a good downhill. You could probably drop 30 seconds tomorrow if you found an appropriate downhill.
How is that going to help out his mile time on a flat surface? If all he wants is to cover a mile in 5 minutes or less under his own power, he can just skydive and "run" a mile in well under a minute.
wqqqqqqqq wrote:
elusive dreams wrote:The max I've run consistently was 50-55 MPW in singles for 2 months. Pace was 7:30/mile. First attempt at that resulted in achilles tendinitis, second attempt at it completely killed my speed. At one point, I took a day off, put on my spikes, ran an all-out 400, and ended up with a time that was 10 seconds slower than what I ran the previous year.
So far, what seems to work best for me is playing to my strengths by running low mileage/high intensity and relying on the altitude tent for the endurance. A typical week would be 15 MPW at 7:00 pace with strides at the end of most runs and either a hard interval workout or a time trial every 4-5 days.
Neither of those extremes sound like good training. 'High' mileage, take 1: run too much for your body to handle. 'High' mileage, take 2: run distance but don't train speed. Current typical training: run too little, run too fast for your current level.
High mileage and speed sounds like a recipe for injury if you got injured the first time doing high mileage.
To the OP, I have run the mile and coached it for over 40 years, and quite honestly your running form is ghastly, for starters. I have never witnessed a 55-second 400 by someone seeming to have some sort of epileptic event, but fortunately you posted it and there it is. You seriously need a coach who has a grasp on technical matters. Literally every element of your form is wrong. If you aren't getting some pretty nasty injuries it is just a matter of time.
I didn't notice any details of your training (weekly schedule and how it varies seasonally) so I can only imagine how off-base it is. At the very least read Daniel's cover-to-cover and take heed on the variety and development of paces, progression of mileage, etc.. Post your training here for some input if you like, rather than complaining about the hand you have been dealt. You can't run sub-5:00 because you don't deserve to, certainly not with that form. Also what were your splits in those miles? If you are going out in low-70's and running 5:20s then you are not respecting the event. The key is progression from where you ARE, not battering away at an arbitrary numerical goal every time you race.
From your times you seem to be predominantly fast-twitch, but are undersized for the pure sprints and grossly inefficient for longer distances. In my mid-40s I ran 55 for 400, with PRs of 2:05, 4:40, 16:32, 1:18. I raced the 800/mile at least a dozen times a year and worked my tail off for every second. I took my girlfriend from 7:00 for the mile to 4:30 for 1500 in a year and a half (she had excellent form and was very coachable). We rarely ran more than 50 miles in base training but she was consistently 35-40 MPW. That is enough to break 5:00 for most athletes.
You might be able to scare sub-50 seconds for 400 with proper coaching (including lots of weight work, technique and hills), but since you are no longer in school this is unlikely to happen.
The simplest way to clean up your flailing arms and bounding stride is concerted effort on hill repeats, but that is only a start.
No, you won't ever run sub-4:30 for a mile, but with guidance sub-5 is well within reach, given proper discipline and effort.
Not An Expert wrote:
Week 1:
M- 6 easy (8:00-8:30), weights and strides
Tu- 3 x mile @ 6:00-6:10 w/ 90s recovery (build to 5 x mile)
W- 4 easy (8:00-8:30), weights and strides
Th- 8 x 200 @ 33-35, easy 200 recovery (build to 12 x 200)
F- 4 easy (8:00-8:30)
Sa- 8, first half easy (8:00-8:30) picking up to 6:45-7:00 pace over the second half
Su- 4 easy (8:00-8:30) or off
Week 2:
M- 6 easy (8:00-8:30), weights and strides
Tu- 4 x 1000 @ 3:35-3:40 (3 min recovery) (build to 6 x 1000)
W- 4 easy (8:00-8:30)
Th- 6 x 400 @ 72-74 (equal time recovery) (build to 10 x 400)
F- 4 easy (8:00-8:30), weights and strides
Sa- hilly 8 mile run, run the uphills hard
Su- 4 easy (8:00-8:30) or off
Try it.
Great training there.
If you are doing real weights, though, do it after your hard workouts, NOT on your running recovery days.
So you can fully recover on recovery days.
As far as weights: Periodization is the best route, where you lift heavy, including legs during the base phase, gaining a base of strength, then gradually tapering down through pre-comp and comp phases and no/little weights during your peak. Basically you diminish weights in proportion to speedwork and races.
That said, short hill work is as good or better than lifting legs in most cases. Builds more functional strength, especially with hill-springing component a la Lydiard.
"The max I've run consistently was 50-55 MPW in singles for 2 months. Pace was 7:30/mile. First attempt at that resulted in achilles tendinitis, second attempt at it completely killed my speed. At one point, I took a day off, put on my spikes, ran an all-out 400, and ended up with a time that was 10 seconds slower than what I ran the previous year.
So far, what seems to work best for me is playing to my strengths by running low mileage/high intensity and relying on the altitude tent for the endurance. A typical week would be 15 MPW at 7:00 pace with strides at the end of most runs and either a hard interval workout or a time trial every 4-5 days."
You have no idea how to train. Most likely you need a coach but it is difficult and/or expensive so lets start with Not an Expert's schedule. My guess is that you are not close to being in good enough shape to do it.
Don't worry about what "Not" tells you to build to that would be considered extraordinary measures for next year. You need to be under trained the entire time.
Consider the paces I have listed as the maximum you should do. No matter how good you feel do not run faster, until your mile race. We are not training you for a 50% chance to run 4:40, we want a 90% chance to run exactly 4:59.
For Feb and March: Start with running 2/3 of each workout and add 45 seconds per mile to every pace.
For April: Run each of the workouts listed at 45 seconds per mile slower than listed.
For May: Increase the workout pace to 30 sec/mile slower than listed.
For June: increase the workout pace to 15 sec/mile slower than listed.
For July: increase the workout pace to that listed.
For August: repeat July but run the 3rd of the 3 x mile faster say 5:40 and then 5:30 the last two weeks of August.
You can most likely find a road mile in September. The first two week cycle run the 3rd mile in 5:20 then 11 days later in place of the 8 mile run race your mile.
Week 1: I would be temped to move the 2nd weight workout to Friday.
M- 6 easy (8:00-8:30), weights and strides
Tu- 3 x mile @ 6:00-6:10 w/ 90s recovery (build to 5 x mile)
W- 4 easy (8:00-8:30), weights and strides
Th- 8 x 200 @ 33-35, easy 200 recovery (build to 12 x 200)
F- 4 easy (8:00-8:30)
Sa- 8, first half easy (8:00-8:30) picking up to 6:45-7:00 pace over the second half
Su- 4 easy (8:00-8:30) or off
Week 2:
M- 6 easy (8:00-8:30), weights and strides
Tu- 4 x 1000 @ 3:35-3:40 (3 min recovery) (build to 6 x 1000)
W- 4 easy (8:00-8:30)
Th- 6 x 400 @ 72-74 (equal time recovery) (build to 10 x 400)
F- 4 easy (8:00-8:30), weights and strides
Sa- hilly 8 mile run, run the uphills hard
Su- 4 easy (8:00-8:30) or off
Racerator wrote:
To the OP, I have run the mile and coached it for over 40 years, and quite honestly your running form is ghastly, for starters. I have never witnessed a 55-second 400 by someone seeming to have some sort of epileptic event, but fortunately you posted it and there it is. You seriously need a coach who has a grasp on technical matters. Literally every element of your form is wrong.
I have never seen someone run a 55 second 400 who weighs under 110 lbs. Guess you learn something new every day.
Pretty sure Muna Lee (when she was at 109lbs) could do that (10.85 100m, 22.01 200m, part of a 4x400 relay that went 3:35 in college), and she's got waaayyyyy less testosterone than the OP.
Axed wrote:
I have never seen someone run a 55 second 400 who weighs under 110 lbs. Guess you learn something new every day.