Why can't Americans break the world record in the 1500?

Ok, thanks for clarifying. I see the current slump as a problem of elite level cynicism. I want to do something to redress this, but I get the feeling that people are fixated on negative things, which doesn't inspire me to want to try and reach them. I think you might know what I'm refering to?

I talked to Steve Cram about this back in 2006, he said some interesting things. I would like to continue that conversation some time.

mark b wrote:

USA did hold the record from 1967 to 1974, just as Australia held it from 1960 to 1967 but was this because of the brilliance of Ryun and Elliott rather than some national characteristic?

Yes. And it was also mostly due to it being the pre-African era. Simple as that. The en masse participation of East and North africans did not happen until the 80's and beyond (really the 90's). This changed everything. It's as simple as that, let's not overcomplicate things. The USA and the Aussies (Mottram) would very likely had WR holders again if this influx never occurred. But it occurred. Western countries simply have not produced a miler as talented as Kiprop or El G or any number of africans. Coe, Cram, Ryun, Webb, etc were likely our peaks. As we move forward, we may produce some as good as those, or a litte better. If the Africans have peaked, and we do surpass the western greats mentioned above, then maybe we'll knock on the door once more of a WR in a 1500. For any distance WR: Most possible: 1500. Least likely, 10,000.

Thank you Jon Orange. I am no longer a coach but a writer. I am giving of the depths of what I believe is right and not holding anything back. There are no secrets.

Since Lydiard is over quoted (According to no less authority than Craig Virgin) his system is also usually misunderstood. Perhaps if I coached again I would do too little hard interval training with my team and they would look bad the first year.

However what I understand about Lydiard is that all you are doing is delaying your ultimate peak if you only train aerobically.

If you race and do hard intervals (200s and up) you cut your ultimate peak short because the aerobic system determines the peak. Even the 400 meter dash is 33% Aerobic according to most studies.

** You do speed development all year long. Will a hard 400 meter hill develop speed? No, it will develop anaerobic endurance. If you want to develop speed you jump rope, do short sprints, short gradual hills, etc.

Ethiopia does that and they have the reputation for sprint speed at the end of their races.

***I would have a team start doing interval training with 10 weeks to go before the big race, but you build it up for 6 weeks, and then taper off 4 weeks before the big race.

It is really the same question isn't it?

Mark B., you know this:

Ethiopia and Kenya have the best 5K and 10K runners in the world. Just a few years ago both of the top ten lists had only Kenyans and Ethiopians on them. Most guys on the list are about 5'6" 125'. They literally run their rears off!!!

{Just for fun I checked the Wikipedia for the top 25 5K runners of all time.

Their is only ONE guy who is not from the African continent. You can use your own eyes and determine how many are from Ethiopian and Kenya!}

*But you can bet that the current list is more of the same.

Who dominates World CC? Kenya and Ethiopia! There might be another African or two thrown in, but I think it has been this way for the last 15 years or so.

What makes those countries superior? It's culture and expectations.

They are supported by their village if they are good runners. In America if they can't pass their SATs we put them out to pasture or they go the JUCO route. It's hard to work full-time and train like you need to do to be world class!

(Kenyans and Ethiopians have NO physical advantages and most do not

run to school and back daily. We've studied this, look it up on the internet with an open mind.)

We are afraid of the Africans like small towns are of big towns. But we think it's altitude or hills. We have those all over the world.

Tyrone:

If you look at the top 25 list according to Wikipedia 24 are from the African continent! It's more due to hard work than talent. Studies have shown that most do not run to and from school either. That is a myth.

Why can't we just admit that the Africans run their butts off and we will not do it.

How much do these guys weigh? Most are about 5'7" 125' or so.

Americans and Europeans are heavier for the most part. We like our wt. training and intervals.

How strong do you really have to be to run the 5K?

At 800 ad 1500 i think that the Africans are perfectly well within reach. How far, for example, is Coe's best off the current 800 WR? not very far! Cram's WR mile is within touching distance - at a stretch- of the current WR. When Ryun ran his 3:33.1 he was clearly in shape to go under 3:30 (better track, more even pace etc., etc.). It is possible for non Africans to get into the condition needed to challenge current WRs at the shorter distances. I accept that at 5K, 10K & above things seem a bit different. (Obviously, in saying this I am counting Mo Farah as genetically African even though in terms of nationality he is 100% Brit!)

The fact that the British can't get anywhere near the world record (or the times of Coe, Ovett, Cram, Elliot) 30 years ago tells you there must be a social reason why whites in general are not breaking MD records anymore.

The best British milers of the 1980s were running 10 seconds faster than the best British milers 30 years before them. The best British milers of the 2010s are running 5 or more seconds slower than the best British milers 30 years before them.

Middle-distance events are clearly the best suited to 'white' genetics. The reason for the decline is twofold :

1/ most of the Africans who dominated middle-distance events since the 90's were/are likely taking PEDs.

2/ Most genetically talented middle-distance runners would rather play soccer than do track and field. (this doesn't apply so much to the USA, which is likely why the top white middle-distance guys these days are American).

Ivo Van Damme, who won silver at 800m and 1500m in 1976, aged just 22 (same age as Ovett who finished 5th and semi-final, and just over a year older than Coe who did not qualify), was a talented soccer player and likely would have had a top career if he hadn't chosen athletics. In today's world, with the pay that even mediocre footballers get, he probably wouldn't even have considered an athletics career.

Adam Gemeli was a non-league football player for Christ's sake and agonized over the decision to switch full-time to athletics, with all his obvious sprinting talent. Unless you're a medalist, even non-league soccer in Europe probably pays better than track and field.

markb, Tyrone, houellebecq:

Where have you guys been the last ten years?

There is no black genetics, or white genetics, or any other color genetics.

We are all one race. A guy in China could have the same DNA as someone on the British Isles! In fact those two could be more alike DNA-wise than any two Chinese!

Apparently none of you guys read any of my recent posts either.

24 of the top 25 all-time 5000 meter runners come from the African continent!

My next post will concentrate on the 1500/mile.

Just as I thought, 21 out of the top 25 top runners of the men's 1500 are from the African continent according to Wikipedia.

How much do you want to bet the 10,000 is even more dominated by Africans than either the 5K or 1500?

Check my next post.

John Walker still holds the NZ/AU mile record (1975) of 3:49.

Steve Cram still holds the European mile record (1986) of 3:46.

Let's not over-complicate things by bringing East and North Africans into the conversation. Answer first the question why white people cannot beat their parents generation. Then we can talk about world records.

24 of the 25 runners with the best ever 10,000 meter time are from the African continent. One of those African runners did spend some time in GB, so I suppose we have to say it's only 23 out of 25.

Should we check our "natural talent" scorecard?

1500---21 of 25

5000---23 of 25 Are we talking about natural talent here?

10000 23 of 25

_____________________

67 of 75 or 89.3% are of the African continent.

Ah but how many from Kenya, or Ethiopia? But I think you know that answer. What does a World CC Championship look like...

Kenya, Kenya, Ethiopia, Ethiopia, Kenya, Kenya, Ethiopia, Kenya, Ethiopia...

it's not an exaggeration. Please tune in sometime!

That is not natural ability.

If you are not a part of the solution, then you are part of the problem. People think that someone is smarter, faster, tougher because of the color of their skin.

How sad is that!

LOL, tell that to a sickle cell sufferer.

Jed Clampett wrote:

I started a previous post about the glut of sub-4 minute milers America has produced over the last 15 years, without producing any international stars.

It is true that many of these guys are still young and could flourish. But some of them are definitely done as well.

There are several things wrong with the American system, and it's not drugs!

We just race our athletes too much and there is an over-reliance on interval training.

Tell me I'm wrong!

Why would Americans need a special approach? Everyone else races a lot and does interval training.

Jon Orange wrote:

sticky figure wrote:

Because evolution is not about maxing out one particular trait, it is about developing a set of traits that make you successful in your environment. Every physical attribute needs to be just good enough to survive comfortably enough, so you have energy left to procreate.

What has that got to do with my question? Why is it not a training adaption to produce more red blood cells?

Because we have the right amount to deliver oxygen, More is not better.

Why do some people have way more than others?

First off you probably meant white people, not Americans.

Secondly and lastly it's because the record is 3:26:00!

If that doesn't answer your question then I don't know what does.

They suffer from EED: exogenous erythropoietin deficiency.

This.