Another Huge Russian Doping Scandal - 2011 World, 2012 Olympic champ Mariya Savinova implicated + IAAF treasurer

Left Said Fred wrote:

You don't see women in the UK or America outperforming the men, for example. You agree?

I get that you are making your point on a larger scale than one individual, but how do you reconcile what you said with Paula's performances?

The whole circus of drug testing is corrupt.

But the whole circus of doping is silly anyway. All world records are beatable without drugs. The real performance enhancer is adrenalin.

Anyone ever want to discuss this anytime?

No?

Too controversial?

I suspect this one will drag on forever and never get to a conclusion - I bet a year from now someone will start a thread 'hey, what happened to that savinova doping story?'

The sport of T&F is like WWE wrestling. Nobody takes it seriously anymore. This Russian scandal is a big deal to T&F fans but to others its ho hum.

Mainstream sports fans all assume that everyone in T&F is on some kinda dope.

boomtown rascals wrote:

Didn't Shobukhova have better track credentials than P. Radcliffe? And even drugged, she couldn't get close to Radcliffe's WR in the marathon?

This line of questioning is SO STUPID.

Think about it logically. You are saying, she had better track credentials than Racliffe yet couldn't break her WR in the marathon. So what.

Consider this

1) All of Shobukhova's marks in my mind are likely the result of doping, not just the marathon.

2) The person who compared their PRs missed it entirely.

At 800: Shob ran 2:03, Rad 2;05.

At 1500: Shob ran 4:03, Rad 4:05.

At 5000: Shob ran 14:23, Rad 14:29

But they failed to list the 10k pbs which are key.

At 10k: Shob ran 30:29 and Rad ran 30:01.

So Shob was morre of a mid-d runner. Rad clearly was a better longer distance runner on the track and thus the better expected marathoner.

Radcliffe was 4.5 seconds per mile faster than Shob at the 10k and 5.9 seconds per mile faster than Shobukhova at the marathon,nothing shocking here since Rad is the better long distance runner

Alan Webb has a better 1500 and 5000 pb than Ryan Hall. That doesn't make him a better marathoner.

"Currently, questions are being asked about the extent to which pharmaceuticals such as AICAR, GW501516, TP500 and GAS6 are being used. Some of them have already been found during searches of vehicles and have been used by some athletes, doctors and soigneurs. These substances provide an equivalent effect to EPO, because they improve the performance of the athlete by boosting the transport and utilisation of oxygen by the body. Their effect is very well known. AICAR and TP500, for example, increases the number of mitochondria in the muscles. These cells are in a way little energy plants, which transform substrates (carbohydrates, lipids, proteins) into energy through the use of oxygen. The two products also bring about an increase in lipolysis (the breakdown of 'fat' to provide energy). They maintain lipolysis during intense efforts."

"To be more specific, when an athlete is tying at 80 per cent of his maximum, in principle he stops burning fat and only burns carbohydrate. By using these products, he can continue to burn fat as well as carbohydrate, even at 95 per cent of his maximum. This additional power, which stems from the use of fat reserves, offers a huge advantage. It is absolutely impossible to achieve naturally. Meanwhile the public can see another effect of the products in the physical transformation of competitors into athletes who don't seem very muscular and are very lean. They have a very low fat percentage because they are able to burn all their fats, including those in muscle fibres, and benefit from an increase in energy. With regard to growth factor GAS6, this allows the secretion of endogenous EPO. It is completely undetectable.”

Here's a quick excerpt from Christopher Basson's new book (he's a retired professional cyclist). I wonder if this is the high tech doping a lot of the teams with money, including runners are doing. Really interesting. A similar situation is happening in comparison to the russian doping scandal in the sense that 5 riders from Astana (the Khazakistan team) have tested positive recently. Some of them being from their feeder team!!

Hard Man wrote:

So let me get this straight, if one of my athletes surreptitiously heads down Mexico way and self administers PEDs and gets pinged, me, and anyone associated with him/her, is a goner?

They do something similar to criminals friends, work colleagues, relatives, etc (people they perceive as criminal anyway) in the workers paradise of Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

HM: Another example of this sort of thing happening in the U.S.:

LetsRun.com wrote:

The great work of German journalist Hajo Seppelt and ARD has paid off once again. A source had been telling us all fall that something big was going to break soon and here it is.

http://www.letsrun.com/news/2014/12/olympic-world-800-champion-mariya-savinova-implicated-massive-russian-doping-scandal/

Truly amazing stuff that might only get bigger when we find out how far up the chain the bribes went. It's alleged that the Valentin Balakhnichev - the IAAF Treasurer who is the head of the Russian federation as well - was aware of $600,000 bribes paid by Liliya Shobukhova to not test positive.

I started a thread several months ago that asked if a whole nation meaning Russia should be banned from IAAF competition. It didn't get a whole lot of traction because to some it seemed silly. As of right now, nearly 90% of Russia's top track & field athletes have either been caught or are only one or two degrees of separation from being obvious dopers. The one area Russia has consistently excelled at for decades is race walking, from what I know, all Russians race walkers train together at their national training center. So many of their race walkers have been busted that I think the entire program is state sponsored and built on drugs. Btw, I think doping in race walking is rampant, but that is another discussion.

The main reason I ask should an entire nation be banned is some of the athletes have been busted using sophisticated drugs and methods way beyond what they can afford. The Russian dopers aren't lone wolves, they appear to be part of a big program and except for an occasional lamb, they are not getting busted by the Russian federation.

I suppose I was the one who failed to list the 10k PBs...that was not intentional. It is simply an artifact of Liliya's 10k PB missing on Wikipedia.

Also note the discrepancy in their HM PBs.

Liliya: 1:10:21

Paula: 1:05:40

If Shobukova is lucky, her lifetime ban gets retroactively backdated by a

couple of years, and she can join the IAAF hall of fame in 2022. Well done!

LetsRun.com wrote:

The great work of German journalist Hajo Seppelt and ARD has paid off once again. A source had been telling us all fall that something big was going to break soon and here it is.

http://www.letsrun.com/news/2014/12/olympic-world-800-champion-mariya-savinova-implicated-massive-russian-doping-scandal/

Truly amazing stuff that might only get bigger when we find out how far up the chain the bribes went. It's alleged that the Valentin Balakhnichev - the IAAF Treasurer who is the head of the Russian federation as well - was aware of $600,000 bribes paid by Liliya Shobukhova to not test positive.

The Ruskies likely aren't any worse than a lot of countries that will throw stones. The big difference is the leader of Russia is hated by the folks who run the media - who are of the same ilk of the oligarchs who plundered Russia and whom Putin has locked up when they are foolhardy enough to march back into Russia. Part of campaign on several fronts. At least Putin isn't sexually suspect like one leader of a superpower that is spiraling ever downward. lol

J.R. wrote:

The ONLY solution is to get rid of the drug tests and agencies, let athletes compete on their merits, and put a stop to the elevation of drugs and drug promoters.

Sciatica Road wrote:

The fundamentally problem with this, is that it would be a full-on drugged up sport, possibly without restraint for safety's sake. And the lesser-advanced-state countries, like Kenya, would have the advantage over the more-advanced-state countries, like the USA

To the contrary, when drugs are readily available and free or low cost, there will be no more incentive to make up bogus drug trial results and promote them. Currently drugs are promoted constantly in the U.S., on tv, on the internet, and even in snail mail. When the profit motive goes away, then the motivation to keep selling and promoting the drugs goes away, and athletes will have no more inclination or motivation to use them.

Probably more than 90% of Americans already use some type of drugs, and look at the typical American, so it's not like they provide any advantage to anyone anyway.

re: "90% of Americans already use some type of drugs"

Do you really believe 90% of Americans are on drugs?

TrackCoach wrote:

Do you really believe 90% of Americans are on drugs?

A definition of "drugs" is required, using JR's definition I'm guessing he meant probably more than 90% of Americans 'have used' some type of drugs, using his definition it's probably 100%, ie paracetamol, caffeine, etc, etc.

"who are of the same ilk of the oligarchs who plundered Russia and whom Putin has locked up when they are foolhardy enough to march back into Russia. "

When you say "march back into", that gives the notion of an army. Is that what you meant? What do you mean? Can you cite a source/article referring to someone being locked up?

"At least Putin isn't sexually suspect like one leader of a superpower that is spiraling ever downward."

Who is sexually suspect? Are you harking back to the days of Clinton?

Mans Country for da Prez wrote:

The big difference is the leader of Russia is hated by the folks who run the media - who are of the same ilk of the oligarchs who plundered Russia and whom Putin has locked up when they are foolhardy enough to march back into Russia.

He evidently locked up "the greenies":

Anybody else?

trying to follow wrote:

He evidently locked up "the greenies":

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/geoffreylean/100277103/why-would-vladimir-putin-bankroll-the-greenies-he-previously-locked-up/

Anybody else?

This guy?

J.R., you are evidently still failing to take into account that PED's actually DO WORK, at least over some period of time, for enhancing sport performance (harmful consequences notwithstanding). You evidently don't think they provide a shred of performance enhancement to sport, except for possibly a placebo affect, correct?

Sciatica Road wrote:

You evidently don't think they provide a shred of performance enhancement to sport, except for possibly a placebo affect, correct?

Yes.