If Letsrun was around when Wang Junxia ran 29.31 WR?

toro wrote:

It kind of enhances the idea that events in China can be shady when you have four years of results with Ma's athletes and the two fastest races in history were all Chinese fields in races held in China.

If they replicated this in Zurich against an international field then you may have a point that the Beijing results could have been legit.

Right. Some folks argue that this is due to anti doping testing in Europe. But lets face it, the only wonder drug in long distance running is EPO and there were no tests in the early 90's for it. So they could have done this in Zurich. But they didn't.

Short track. End of thread.

The other guy! wrote:

Right. Some folks argue that this is due to anti doping testing in Europe. But lets face it, the only wonder drug in long distance running is EPO and there were no tests in the early 90's for it. So they could have done this in Zurich. But they didn't.

Short track. End of thread.

No. We've been thru this.

The other events would have been much faster. They weren't.

Christ

I don't want to go again in the discussion about the WR of Wang Junxia and the other WR in 1993.

But I need to explain something about Chinese athletics.

Chinese Federation never was a strong Federation, insde the Country, like, for example, the federation of East Germany.

China is divided in 32 Provinces. About 90% of the money for Chinese Sport comes from the Provinces themselves, not from the Central Government. All the athletes are paid by their Province, practically they are workers for the Province. The Provinces have big advantages ONLY when are able to produce winners in the domestic Olympic Games, that are Chinese National Games. Coaches and athletes have big benefits winning medals in this occasion (for example, a house, a car, a better job for all their life).

Chinese athletes, being workers of the Provinces, are not free to go to compete, but need to move inside organized periods of "training camps" abroad, according plans decided from 4 to 6 months before. They need to have the permission from the Government, since they can be abroad only like "mission" (something that can happen also in Italy, for example, for all the athletes competing for military clubs : they need to be authorized by their corp, or for moving free need to ask for a period of holidays).

Coaches, officials and, in many cases, also athletes, are not interested in WCh or, sometimes, OG, because they, in their Province, don't have real advantages from their results. The final goal for Chinese athletes is not to earn money through meetings and private activity, such as all the athletes of western Countries, but is to have a better job inside their Province. This can happen when they can have good competition in China, not when they compete abroad.

I have to face this type of problem today, too, because under this point of view the situation didn't change compared with 20 years ago, but, if possible, is now worse.

Chinese Athletic Association wants to change the system, because is interested in important results during the official institutional championships, but it's for the Federation very difficult to have th disponibility of chinese athletes for long time, because Provincial coaches want to prepare them for one yearly competition only (National Championships), normally in the second part of the season, and at the shape of 80% compared with the shape they achieve for National Games, once every 4 years.

I started my collaboration with Chinese Federation at the beginning of the past November, after following as spectator their National Games. There were no athletes of big talent, but many runners, very Young, with good future possibilities. For example, the first 3 in 10000m ran 31'55" / 31'56" / 31'58", with the second 5 km in 15'40".

All these athletes came together in the National Team. For the first time, Chinese Federation tried to put together the best runners, moving from their different Provinces.

National Games were at the beginning of September. At the beginning of January of this year, all the athletes winning medals in National Games had still to start their training, and I have to send them again to their Provinces, because they didn't have any motivation and were not interested in any activity out of China.

Next year, there are in China World Cross Country Championships, but in China, practically, doesn't exist any activity of cross country. The athletes are all together, in the Provincial School of Sport, with wonderful facilities, in the middle of big cities, but without any road for running. Chinese athletes can be good in all technical events, beause I saw facilities that never, in any other Country in the World, I saw before. But do you understand which kind of mentality for becoming a runner of middle distance you can have, when everything you do is on a indoor track for several months, and never you go for endurance outside a stadium ?

In Liaoning Province, Ma Juren was able to create particular interest, not only in the athletes, but in the Province, in the period 1985-1993, and again with another Group in 1996-97. ALL the best Chinese athletes of the period were from the same province.

The final goal of this activity, were not WCH or OG : were National Games ! I remember, in 1993 in Stuttgart, during WCh, Wang Junxia, after winning the heat of 10000m, jumping for all the duration of the second heat, looking at the other Chinese competing, because the heat was a normal training (such as the final, when she won the title), LOOKING AT NATIONAL GAMES.

Of course that one was not a normal situation, and many athletes of Ma Juren, after finishing their activity, paid very heavily the period of crazy training they had.

But, going at the specific (10000m WR), the reality is that there was an athlete (Wang Junxia) with unbelievable talent (physical and mental), very far also from all the other chinese (the 3rd in that race ran over 31' and was lapped). May be there was doping or the use of some substance part of the ancient chinese tradition, that we don't know ; but the main thing was a training like nobody before, and nobody after, never tried.

In a different social situation, Chinese athletes could have, 20 years ago, great advantages, because there were not alternatives (like currently in Africa). In the situation of today, when Chinese Young generation has a lot of chances, to find somebody with the same culture of fatigue is practically no more possible.

Renato Canova wrote:

But, going at the specific (10000m WR), the reality is that there was an athlete (Wang Junxia) with unbelievable talent (physical and mental), very far also from all the other chinese (the 3rd in that race ran over 31' and was lapped). May be there was doping or the use of some substance part of the ancient chinese tradition, that we don't know ; but the main thing was a training like nobody before, and nobody after, never tried.

Coach Canova, with all due respect, I think we all know they were on something. The fact that they were thrown out in 2000 virtually proves that they were.

Also, all the hard work in the world shouldn't give a person the ability to smash the 10k world record by 40 seconds and close in a time faster than the 3k world record. There's obviously something wrong going on there.

Here's 6 minutes and 43 seconds of video from the 1993 Stuttgart women's 10,000 world championship race where Junxia ran 30:49:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0IytBXo6HE

There's some rm format videos here:

http://www.cctv.com/program/e_documentary/20041115/102416.shtml

An interview with Junxia:

http://www.wantinews.com/news-6438992-Junxia-memory-for-Owens-Award:-Whether-hard-and-smooth-the-way-I-would-sing.html

Some further insights:

http://www.instant-news.us/news-130386.html

Renato Canova wrote:

But, going at the specific (10000m WR), the reality is that there was an athlete (Wang Junxia) with unbelievable talent (physical and mental), very far also from all the other chinese

If you look at that particular 10,000m race, you're right. But if you also consider these insane 1,500m and 3,000m races, then she was one of many.

the main thing was a training like nobody before

Lance Armstrong also trained harder than anyone else (or so he said). It's because DRUGS allow you to train harder and to recover faster.

Anyway, a good way of looking at these things is comparing female to male talent. Whenever you see a lot more female standouts than male, there is indication of big time doping with e.g. testosterone. Compare East Germany, Russia, China.

Drunk Mormon with a vasectomy wrote:

such as "How the hell did she run 8:17 for her last 3K?" or "Why did none of these women ever come remotely close to those marks elsewhere?".

That she closed in 8:17 is not the unbelievable thing - I would expect someone very well trained who can run close to 8 minutes dead for 3000m to do that off a 15 minute 5km. The unbelievable thing is that she could run close to 8 minutes dead for 3000m.

I would remind you that going into 1993, the women's 10000m record wasn't particularly tough. Kristiansen's former WR has only been bettered 14 times because women's 10000m running hasn't caught up with the men's. Consider that Ondieki's former WR has been bettered 85 times since 1993, to 14 times since 1986 for Kristiansen's.

The 10000m time and the way Wang ran it in Beijing is not unbelievable for someone coming from an endurance background who can run 3:50 and 8:06 (and I think she was probably worth a second or two better than 8:06). What is unbelievable is that in a year's time, she went from losing out to Paula Radcliffe at the World Junior Cross Country in 1992, to having the sort of form to run 3:50 and 8:06.

But if you still think it's a short track, answer how it could have been done. Explain away all the points that have already been brought up: Omega's Swiss Timers recording the times, the foreign press observing the correct number of of laps (which the Swiss timers surely would have noticed as well), the lack of any bump whatsoever in the level of performance from the men, how on earth the hurdlers didn't crash into the barriers, and how they did it all over again four years later in Shanghai, but not four years later still once Coach Ma was out of the picture, and how they managed to bottle this up with the foreign company that laid the tracks in Beijing and in Shanghai.

I'm aware that you don't believe that talent, plus EPO, testosterone, growth hormone, etc., plus 40km day of hard running can make a woman run like that, but what else could it be if you can't answer the above? And why was this never done outside of China? Not because the track was short, but in part because their focus was the National Games as Canova mentioned, but also because they surely couldn't run the testing in foreign meets as they could within China in the days before WADA.

Help me with the uneven pacing.

We know empirical evidence tells us that near even pacing gives you the chance for the fastest times.

I know that no man that has a 3:50 1500m PR can handle an opening 300 of 42s or 400 of 57s and manage to run 3:50.

It suggests they can run in the range of 3:42-3:45.

How can the fastest performances, by far, be run so inefficiently?

And the 8:12 in the prelim.

You break the world record by 10 seconds in a prelim when you are trying to qualify for the final?

This is probably the greatest story of the event.

That's crazy if you are correct that the IAAF wouldn't need a full video for a WR. If a WR happened in, say, a collegiate or HS dual meet, would it be allowed if there was a "photo finish," as you mentioned? What's the difference between that and the WR Beijing meet?

i could believe the overall time as the world record but i honestly think these splits were made up. if it was a world record race 1. she would have gone out a lot faster than 15 minutes 2. there's like a 1% chance she could have run a 14:26 2nd 5k when her PR in the 5k is 14:51 and 3. there's DEFINITELY no way she ran an 8:17 last 3k.

Good job with the fake splits.

ijenns318 wrote:

i could believe the overall time as the world record but i honestly think these splits were made up. if it was a world record race 1. she would have gone out a lot faster than 15 minutes 2. there's like a 1% chance she could have run a 14:26 2nd 5k when her PR in the 5k is 14:51 and 3. there's DEFINITELY no way she ran an 8:17 last 3k.

Good job with the fake splits.

Yeah, how did people actually confirm the splits on the race? I think it's far more likely the splits were wrong than the track was short. IMO, 29:31 could've been done by a 8:06, 3:51 athlete who also ran a 2:24 marathon. She was obviously an all-time talent.

GoldenMiles wrote:

ijenns318 wrote:

i could believe the overall time as the world record but i honestly think these splits were made up. if it was a world record race 1. she would have gone out a lot faster than 15 minutes 2. there's like a 1% chance she could have run a 14:26 2nd 5k when her PR in the 5k is 14:51 and 3. there's DEFINITELY no way she ran an 8:17 last 3k.

Good job with the fake splits.

Yeah, how did people actually confirm the splits on the race? I think it's far more likely the splits were wrong than the track was short. IMO, 29:31 could've been done by a 8:06, 3:51 athlete who also ran a 2:24 marathon. She was obviously an all-time talent.

Foreign correspondents were there, including one from Track & Field News.

Augusto E. Perez wrote:

GoldenMiles wrote:

Yeah, how did people actually confirm the splits on the race? I think it's far more likely the splits were wrong than the track was short. IMO, 29:31 could've been done by a 8:06, 3:51 athlete who also ran a 2:24 marathon. She was obviously an all-time talent.

Foreign correspondents were there, including one from Track & Field News.

Did the splits come from T&FN? I'd love to hear their comment on the WRs from that meet.

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these stats are hilarious. OUTRAGEOUS

it goes to show you that genetics and training alone is not the key to top performance. take any group of chicks with the right make up and dose them with the right PED cocktail and train em like spartians and this is what you get. AMAZING.

last year the world best was 3:56. 1500m women.

china in the big year had 4 girls run faster in the HEATs!!

in 2013 no chinese woman ran better than 4:12 or is in the top 100 in the world. that's 20-22 seconds behind the top 5 from one year in the 90's! THAT'S OFF THE CHARTS! 5 SECONDS A LAP!!!

imagine the top 10 in the usa men running 350 miles average one year, then averaging 410 miles the next. could happen right? not in a billion years.

at the end of the day, science fiction times are science fiction.

i remember posting something like this on track and field news and GH got upset!! too bad. if you are talking track and field and this kind of stuff comes in your face what are you going to do?

ask yourself, is silence a lie?

and ask yourself, when do you say something, and when is it stupid gossip?

cases like this make it easy to figure.

Of course, also the current officials of Chinese Federation know something in 1993 was wrong (but of sure not the track). In those years, doping was widespread in China, using substances not detectable, directly from local herbs and plants.

But I want to point my eyes on some particular, that can't change the reality, but can explain something different about the athletes.

1) All the cases of doping in China happened during the years of National Game.

There is a big difference between the doped athletes in Western Countries (inlcuding Italy) and the chinese doped athletes.

In the first case (see american sprinters, for example), the athletes themselves are looking for every type of support for their training, frequently at the limit of doping (so sometimes they overtake this limit unconsciously, but under the moral point of view to stay inside thelimits or outside the limits doesn't change the fact they look for some external support), because are professionals, having the full responsibility for everything in their career : good or bad results, good or poor money, good or bad strategies, good or bad training. In those Countries, are the athletes themselves chosing their coach, their physio, their doctor, their manager. They decide about their activity in free and personal way, and are the one earning from doping, or losing if caugth.

In China (still today), there are no athletes asking for some support, but local coaches give them different substances, without never explaining the reason. The supplements of today are certified, so are legal, the supplements of many years ago were not certified, and could contain every type of drug.

Put in your mind that in China, till some year ago, the first having benefits from the results of the athletes in National Games were Provincial Coaches (the athletes, apart the winners of Gold, had less advantages). For that reason, coaches tried any type of support for making their athletes able to train in unbelievable way, both as volume and intensity, for about 6 months, but once every 4 years.

When about 10 years ago the Chinese Government of Sport decided to clean completely Chinese sport, the rules became very much harder than the international rules :

a) an athlete positive was banned from any type of competition (also local) for a period of 4 years (when IAAF had the ban of 2 years only), and was not allowed, also after coming back, to compete in the next National Games, or in any activity under the control of Olympic Committee (so, Olympics and Asian Games)

b) the coach of any positive athlete was fired, losing his job (they are paid by their Province)

c) in order not to have strong athletes coming from nowhere the participants in National Games needed to have a deep athletic background. For that reason, in any year there are 4-5 national weekends (Chinese Grand Prix) with the full Olympic program, and the athletes have to compete there for winning points, which they can cumulate following a formula looking more at the participation than at the technical result. After 4 years, only the top 16 athelets with more points can compete in National Games. All the athletes having points need to have frequent antidoping controls (not less than 10-15 times per year), so there is the guarantee that all the participants in National Games are clean.

d) This system provokes some big unfair situation. For example, in 2013 the winner of National Championships in 5000m (Wei Xiaojie, 15'30") was not allowed to run National Games (when was the strongest Chinese) because didn't have enough points during the last 3 years, being a Marathon runner. This is one wrong effect, that this year, with the National Team, we tried to correct.

So, Chinese athletes are victims, not the one having benefit from their doping, and this was the main reason because all the Group of Ma Juren quitted after 1993.

About Wang Junxia, we have also to know one particular that few people know : she has 2 splins ! I don't know which kind of physiological benefit this anatomic particular can give, but it's something other athletes don't have, and probably can partially explain the difference between her and the other Chinese, looking at longest distances.

I remember the World Marathon Cup 1993 in San Sebastian, when Chinese Team went to compete with all the best athletes of track, less than one month after destroying all the WR during National Games. Women started 15 minutes before men, who reached them after 32 kms. There was a small Group in front, with the 4 chinese. The leading Group of men included 6 athletes, with 2 Italians (Severino Bernardini at the end was second) and Richard Nerurkar, at the end winner, from UK (2:10:03 was his winning time).

When the two groups joined together, the pacer was the French Dominique Chevalier, and the pace was about 3'02" per km, since after 30 kms the race went in progression.

Chevalier continued in front for 3 km, asking for some help by the other runners, and the only help he had was... by Wang Junxia, who ran 3 km in about 9' from 32 till 35, using the men Group for creating a gap with the other chinese athletes. I still remember the surprise on the face of Chevalier, nobody could suppose a woman could stay with them at that pace !

maybe they ran 24 laps

Renato Canova wrote:

In those years, doping was widespread in China, using substances not detectable, directly from local herbs and plants.

Yes, that's probably it. substances from local herbs and plants. Which no one else knows of. Not even any other Chinese.

or

380m track. The difference is not visible for the human eye. Track has been demolished since. Coincidence?

Canova is nothing other than the standard Italian bullshitter.

What an embarrassment he is.

Realism wrote:

maybe they ran 24 laps

No