Letsrun, do we have another 'Caster Semenya situation' in girls 800 at 2014 World Juniors?

wow, like... wrote:

did you watch the race? Did anyone see any junk bouncing around? If you didn't, and she doesn't have a penis, its a girl. Doesn't matter how else manly she looks.

This guy must be a genetics major. There certainly is more to it than that.

XYY

Internal testes (see Caster Semenya)

Hormonal irregularities

C'mon, enough of this political talk. We should all celebrate the victory of the distinguished gentleman from Kenya in the women's 800. His competitors weren't worthy to hold his jockstrap.

Le Foot wrote:

Here's the Kenyan junior woman who won the 1500 two years ago

And here's the one who won the 3k

And here's the one who medalled in the 5k

AND now LetsRun thinks both Kenyans this year are suspicious

I'm beginning to think LetsRun has the problem

Those are all clearly girls or young women who just happen to have very short hair. If you can't tell the difference between their body types and that of the individual who won the 800 yesterday, then I suggest you sit this one out.

Tgirl wrote:

Pondering wrote:

If there is any gender ambiguity or intersex condition, why is the default to assign gender as female? Obviously intersex conditions are complicated, but there should be more to determining gender in these cases than labeling persons without perfectly formed male anatomy as female.

For the most part people get assigned thier gender at birth. The doctor looks between the legs and says boy or girl. If there is doubt, the usual assignment is female, largely because surgical prospects are better, not so they will dominate in sports.

I understand that, and am not necessarily speaking of sport. I think it is a mistake in general to define male gender so narrowly and female gender so broadly. In intersex births, it may take a few years of development before the child's gender can be assigned correctly.

Pondering wrote:

I understand that, and am not necessarily speaking of sport. I think it is a mistake in general to define male gender so narrowly and female gender so broadly. In intersex births, it may take a few years of development before the child's gender can be assigned correctly.

I agree 100 percent. Imagine that you're a dude (male gender identity) who finds out that your penis was removed at 6 weeks of age, because some doctor decided that you would be better off with a vagina that with a micro penis (actual medical term).

VPNGuy wrote:

Imali, another Kenyan, was coming up on the inside of lane 1 as Rogers, still leading, was moving slightly toward the middle/inside of the lane. Imali stomped on the back of Rogers foot or ankle.

You report of this seems so objective and unbiased.

I like how you use the word "stomped" you moron.

If an African girl makes contact, it's stomping, and if white girl makes contact it's a "clip" right?

PIL wrote:

Rogers was weaving like a drunken sailor the whole race; wasn't holding any sort of line. Another competitor also was confused by her with 200m to go as she weaved far off the rail and then weaved back.

This is correct. It is funny VPNguy posted this vid because he proves himself wrong.

VPNguy, notice how your girl is pointless at the very outside of lane 1, almost in lane 2 coming off the turn. At this point the Kenyan runner moves up into the gap. Then Rogers suddenly veers back to the rail. No crap she gets clipped. She runs right into the inside her.

What about that prevented her from finishing hard, anyway? It looked more disturbing to the Kenyan she cut off.

Kipketer_Pumpkin_Eater wrote:

Quit disagreeing just to stir up trouble, nimrod. I could give many many pictures as examples.

Wait.

You are challenging another person's STATED GENDER, and you accuse others of stirring up trouble? Moron.

Her name is Margart. In rural Kenya I promise you that means she was born with female parts. Are there ambiguous phenotypic expressions of sex that you imbeciles don't understand? Of course there are.

Le Foot wrote:

Here's the Kenyan junior woman who won the 1500 two years ago

http://www.zimbio.com/photos/Faith+Chepngetich+Kipyegon/14th+IAAF+World+Junior+Championships+Day+Six/CswB8RfVN15

And here's the one who won the 3k

http://dvsl3w2q45hb8.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Mercy-Chebwogen.jpg

And here's the one who medalled in the 5k

http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/images/tuesday/agnes78987.jpg

AND now LetsRun thinks both Kenyans this year are suspicious

I'm beginning to think LetsRun has the problem

POD.

This should put the thread to rest, but it won't.

Piling on in this way is how America welcomes its guests? Gee, do you think maybe while in Eugene surrounded by peer runners someone will tell this girl about Letsrun? Maybe she will even get to read this about herself in the internet cafe at the dorms.

You people disgust me so much. Keeping this thread up is sickening. And yet legitimate doping discussion is deleted every week for fear of offending the "right" people. (ie Not African children, who the Letsrun community happily talks rudely about at length.)

Which of you would have the gonads to say any of this to her in person? None.

this is pathetic wrote:

Piling on in this way is how America welcomes its guests? Gee, do you think maybe while in Eugene surrounded by peer runners someone will tell this girl about Letsrun? Maybe she will even get to read this about herself in the internet cafe at the dorms.

You people disgust me so much. Keeping this thread up is sickening. And yet legitimate doping discussion is deleted every week for fear of offending the "right" people. (ie Not African children, who the Letsrun community happily talks rudely about at length.)

Which of you would have the gonads to say any of this to her in person? None.

+1

Letsrun, delete this scum thread NOW or at least moderate it as effectively as you "moderate" anything mentioning those you are afraid to touch.

You want to known as the site where legitimate news and discussion break on doping, but this is just promoting Letsrun's strong reputation as the place where jealous Americans spread rumors.

Tgirl wrote:

Pondering wrote:

I understand that, and am not necessarily speaking of sport. I think it is a mistake in general to define male gender so narrowly and female gender so broadly. In intersex births, it may take a few years of development before the child's gender can be assigned correctly.

I agree 100 percent. Imagine that you're a dude (male gender identity) who finds out that your penis was removed at 6 weeks of age, because some doctor decided that you would be better off with a vagina that with a micro penis (actual medical term).

So WHY do they declare most intersex babies as female?

The standard protocol for treatment of intersex babies was developed in the 60s and 70s. At the time they believed that gender identity was very malleable in the first two years of life, but became fixed after that.

Thus, the thought was to alter the babies to be, anatomically, one sex (usually female) very early, raise the kids as female and they would live "happily ever after" as female.

It is only recently that this thinking has been challenged. Unfortunately, most doctors practicing today were trained under the old protocol, and intersex kids face many more years of unnecessary "normalizing surgery".

And most posters here think the biggest tragedy is that someone might win a race with an unfair advantage.

i meant to point out that it seems as if the IAAF removed the youtube interview they had with Wambui after the 2nd round.

Unless we made a mistake this video was of Wambui:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ERQ8zTqip4

to me, if true, that's unacceptable.

This issue is difficult to address. The Semenya case illustrates the difficulty of addressing this issue, but it also shows that it is a real question that affects the sport. The possibility of offensive nonsense being stated is of course very high, but the intersex question is out there, and thus needs to be addressed. To that end, I appreciate the comments in the post-race analysis article here.

http://www.letsrun.com/news/2014/07/w-800m-1500-margaret-wambui-jonathan-sawe-claim-two-golds-kenya/

It is especially worth noting that IAAF seems to have pulled post-race interviews with Wambui. I will be interested to see if Wambui appears in any other meets this season. I have no opinions about Wambui's gender status, but should Wambui continue to compete and improve along the trajectory we have just seen, the questions will persist and will affect both IAAF's "product" and Wambui's career, until the questions are answered. If as it appears to be that IAAF's first response is to limit access by pulling interviews, that is unfortunate (but not surprising).

Here's the Kenyan junior woman who won the 1500 two years ago

http://www.zimbio.com/photos/Faith+Chepngetich+Kipyegon/14th+IAAF+World+Junior+Championships+Day+Six/CswB8RfVN15

And here's the one who won the 3k

http://dvsl3w2q45hb8.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Mercy-Chebwogen.jpg

And here's the one who medalled in the 5k

http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/images/tuesday/agnes78987.jpg

AND now LetsRun thinks both Kenyans this year are suspicious

I'm beginning to think LetsRun has the problem

asdasfklfkjas wrote:

Holy crap guys. Seriously. Listen to the video. Listen to that voice. Okay, she looks very muscular and slightly masculine. But I've never met a dude with a voice like that.

The boys posting here are not smart enough to notice this, or to know that voice is more reliable than their stereotypes of physical appearance. Even the most girly male distance runner has a deeper voice than than a big female bodybuilder.

asdasfklfkjas wrote:

99% of this thread is just offensive, uninformed speculation.

Yes, it's sickening. An embarrassment to this website, if that's possible.

Runthemhillsboy wrote:

I met her yesterday in Eugene and she looks nothing like a men.

Wow, someone with actual observations to add.

Did you tell her that American high school boys are having a field day discussing their belied about her appearance? Did you point her to this revolting thread that rojo is participating in? (While deleting threads with legitimate questions on doping?)

Feces-Encrusted Anal Wart wrote:

GD wrote:

Anybody else see the irony in a bunch of tools on a message board thinking they can gender assign people by eyeballing them on the tv, then accusing African countries of being too backward to understand IAAF gender rules?

Yeah, I especially liked the comment about Kenya not quite "getting" homosexuality.

Too funny. This thread could be used in a study of how "backward" Americans are when it comes to gender.

Well golly gee, Brandon, that there don't look like them girls we had in Kansas. I know those Africans have difrent haricuts and all but she sure done do look muscular-like...

I'm not sure what is 'revolting' about this thread. It's an unfortunate aspect that arises every so often with women's athletics.

I've tried to treat Wambui with great repect. I just put up on the front page a nice story about her upbringing and rise from a tough life with a single mom to a gold medal:

I have heavily moderated this thread and deleted probably 30 offensive/off topic posts in it.

We can't win. Do you want us to ignore the whole potential story completely like was the case with the rest of the media with Semenya until it blew up? In Berlin, we were the only entity in the world that had interviewed her. Our youtube interview garnered something like a million views and was on national news entities.

All I've done is allow the fans of the sport to talk about it here (while heavily censuring that talk) and then addressed this talk with a very measured post in oour post-race article on the final.

In case you missed it, here is what we wrote:

India took a sprinter off their women's team for the CG for failing a gender test for androgen. This is a larger issue than most anyone probably could have thought. As technology and testing evolves, it will become a regular source of debate and controversy.