Ryun, Dusseldorf 36.5 finish in 3'38.2 Vid is out there ?

fool

in a non side-on shot you use leading foot as guide to where torso is

in fact there is 3'19.7 on screen & his leading foot is past the line, making it more like 12.6

get a clue

with no side-on shot you have to use foot position to gauge torso

drivel

there is no side-on shot to see torso crossing line

his lead foot is over line with 3'19.7 on clock

nonsense

his foot is past the line at 3'19.7

12.5 is not conservative

nonsense

his foot is already past line with 3'19.7 on clock

& asbel ran far quicker race at 3'31.13

bump

How is this moron still allowed to post?

789 wrote:

How is this moron still allowed to post?

Goodness knows!

Lots of arguing.

All of it hilarious.

One thing the film shows is Ryun's incredible power. Roger Bannister said in '67 he thought Ryun was capable of a 3:45 mile. Likely Ryun had as much or more potential in the mile as anyone. Coe supporters are numerous, but Coe was not the kind of runner who blast the field over a lap or 300, he had that change of form, that up and down movement that was good for about 100 meters, and he used it well.

Ryun did put 4 seconds on Tummler and Norpoth over the last 300, and they were very fast finishers. You can see Tummler stiffen for a second when Ryun flashes by. He was likely stunned at the show of speed.

Coe was a better 800 guy than Ryun. Ryun was not a 1:41 or 1:40 guy. Maybe Ryun had that potential, with modern training, but we will never know. He didn't run enough 800's, I feel, for anyone to accurately gauge his potential there. I don't count what he did in '72, jumping into the 800 after years of not really running the race, as he hadn't enough races to develop any kind of "feel"/ sharpness. You 800 guys know what I mean. Coe had more in him in '81, but going for the mile record (and the $$$$) against Ovett took his attention away from the two lapper.

Flip side is based on little we can see with vids of him running the mile and 1500, even with ridiculously poor training he was a supreme 1500 runner. Coe was not the kind of runner who could have hung with Ryun over that ridiculous 300 and still have had his usual blazing 300 left. I feel this way because I believe Ryun was much more naturally talented as a 1500 runner. I think Ovett was more naturally talented as a 1500 runner than Coe as well. Coe was more "scientifically" trained in some ways than Ovett, of course you still have to have talent as well. But Ovett's training was rather standard in comparison to Coe's.

Ovett had a similar power / drive to Ryun over the last 200/300, and was much better trained. Seeing those two at their peak square off would have been amusing. However, a Ryun trained in sane fashion would be a much better miler than Ovett. Ryun's potential was such that I believe he could compete with any of the top runners of the past 20 years over 1500 meters - if properly trained. I can't really gauge his 800 potential as I mentioned.

But all this stuff is conjecture.

Just like this year's concerns;

Can Kiprop get the 1500 record? Is Kiprop clean or juiced like others suggest - accusing of him taking a dive at the '12 Games in order to avoid drug testing.

Can Makhloufi climb back on top? Is he clean or juiced like some suggest?

Peer Mediator is absolutely correct and you as usual are being totally biased.

Coe's torso is clearly over the line at the bell in 2:39.1, before it ticks over to 2:39.26. which suggest the running clock is about 0.1 behind the actual time at any given point. When Robinson goes through the 800 line the clock is at 1:55.5, yet the split comes up as 1:55.68. When Coe passes 1200m the running clock is at 2:53.1, yet the official split comes up as 2:53.36.

Putting this discrepancy aside, Coe's lead foot is still on the line with 100m to go at 3:19.8. The foot is always going to be ahead of the torso, so his torso is going to be over the line at 3:19.8 at the earliest, possibly 3:19.9.

The 110m and 90m from home lines are also clearly visible and his torso is above these at 3:18.5 and 3:21.0 accordingly. That is the time on the running clock, so in actuality they are probably more like 3:18.6 and 3:21.1.

It should also be pointed out to you that Coe's lead foot is past the finish line with the onscreen clock showing 3:32.2. So, if you want to take his split with 100 to go at 3:19.7 because his lead foot is on the line, then for comparison you have to take his finishing time as 3:32.2, as his foot was already past the finish line at this point. That gives a final 100m of 12.5.

His torso is actually above the line at 3:32.3, so it takes 0.1 from when the foot passes/touches the line/marker until the torso does.

Whichever way you look at it, it was 12.5 not 12.6.

In comparing to Kiprop's Doha run from last year, apart from being almost 30 years ago! The difference between a 3:31.1 and a 3:32.3 at that elite level is negligible.

I have Kiprop's 3:31.1 on video, and closing splits as 1:37.9 last 700m, 54.3 last 400, 39.6 last 300, 25.8 last 200 and 12.4 last 100m.

Coe's in his 3:32.3 closed in 1:36.4, 53.1, 39.0, 25.8, 12.5 for corresponding splits.

These are very comparable, with Coe's overall slightly faster. In the 300m that preceded their last 100m, Coe ran 40.6, whereas Kiprop ran 41.9.

Even if you look at their best 'composite' 800 within the race, Kiprop's is 1:49.3 (55.1 first 400, 54.3 last) and Coe's is 1:48.2 (55.1 first 400, 53.1 last).

Back In DaDeyDay wrote:

but Coe was not the kind of runner who blast the field over a lap or 300, he had that change of form, that up and down movement that was good for about 100 meters, and he used it well.

Coe was not the kind of runner who could have hung with Ryun over that ridiculous 300 and still have had his usual blazing 300 left.

Oh, really?

So what did Coe do to in both his 800 Wrs and his Mile WR of 79? He ran away from world class fields from 400 out!

What did Straub try and do to him and Ovett in the Moscow final? Blast the last 400 to try and draw the sting out of the 2 Brits. It worked on Ovett, but Coe passed him at top speed and managed a 12.1 last 100m.

The truth is Coe never needed to go from 300 out in his peak years, for he knew his last 100 kick was better than anyone else's off any pace. That is not the same as not being able to. You really think any miler of the time was capable of beating Coe at his peak when he was the 800 & 1000m record holder and had a 400 ability of sub 46?

As for not being naturally talented that is BS. You are getting confused between natural talent and precociousness. Ryun and Ovett were fully developed men by 18. Coe didn't stop developing in strength until he was 21/22.

Science alone doesn't get someone to the point where they can run a 45 sec 400 and 7:50 for 3k in the same year.

Ovett himself said Coe was the most naturally talented middle distance runner Britain ever produced.

Coe did not display a sudden change of gears from 300 or 400 meters out in any race. Deano always goes crazy to try and show how Coe was the best no matter what kind of tactic or ability is mentioned. As for runners kissing each other's tails, who cares what they say when they're trying to be "altruistic" regarding the ability of others? Coe has said El Guerrouj is the greatest ever. And El G is the greatest ever based on times and honors won. People view Ryun as never having his reached his potential due to silly training methods and some bad luck - yet still ran very well.

In '79 Coe outlasted the field in his mile record. He didn't display any sudden burst and his stretch run from 1500 to the finish was not all that quick in that race. Coe ran a faster homestretch when he ran 3:47.33 but that finish and last lap were slower than Cram's great mile record in 1985, and Cram set his record in a tactical race. Ryun's '67 record and Bayi's '75 mile record were records in which they led wire to wire. As great as Coe was, he was never able to set a record without some type of rabbit. Imagine Bayi or Ryun having rabbits. Imagine Ryun with some sensible training.

Coe could never run a 36+ last 300 in a 3:38 race. Ryun likely couldn't run a 1:40 800. So what?

By the way, Ryun wasn't fully developed at 18, just look at pictures of him a year and two years later. As for Coe, having a baby face doesn't mean he wasn't developed. Ovett was the guy who matured early, kind of like Alan Webb, balding as a teen.

I don't think the guys are confusing natural talent and precociousness. No one has developed as quickly as Ryun, his progress all the more amazing when one looks at the training he endured. The lack of scientific knowledge in his day is the main reason for this, his coach who was a swim coach figured that swimming routines could be adapted to running.

Coe had great speed. We don't know Ryun's full potential speed wise. Without training specifically for speed per se, he did run a 46.9y relay leg after running a 3:55 mile. In April. This means he ran that quickly at the start of the season.

I have no doubt a well trained Ryun, or for that matter Cram, Aouita, Morceli, and El G would have beaten Coe at his peak over the 1500 / mile. No doubt at all, neither do others. I think Coe was the best 800 runner of the lot, and at his best is second only to Rudisha, who is undoubtedly the greatest of all time.

The remarks on Straub are interesting. He didn't blast the last 400. He actually took off with almost two laps to go. Coe showed the best speed endurance, but it wasn't in a sit and kick over the last 400 type race. It was similar to the way El G took off over the last 800 in '04.

Coe would wait until the last 100 because that was his strength. If he actually raced against top guys at their peak who would churn the last 300 it would take him out of his game. Despite illness the previous year, Coe was in great shape in LA in '84, he had run under 1:44 a month before the Games, with a great stretch kick. But at the Olys, Cruz crushed him by picking up the pace down the back-straight and then hammering the homestretch. If Cruz had tried to coast the backstretch and waited until the final 100, he would have played to Coe's strength. He didn't and Coe lost, his homestretch superiority vaporized. In the 1500, Ovett and Cram were not at their best, so I won't go into much other than to say even though Cram tries to be gracious when remarking about different races, if Cram had been in top shape, say what he showed at his peak form in '85 or '86, Coe wouldn't have been able to handle the drive over the last 200/300 that Cram showed in his 1500/mile races. The only runner at the time who could hang with Cram was Aouita, whom Coe avoided in '84 when he could have raced him head to head after the games. Coe is one of the all time greats, but he had a bit of luck in the '84 1500. I do think if Cram and Ovett were healthy at the '84 games, GB would have swept the 1500 medals.

Luigi Beccali wrote:

… I think Coe was the best 800 runner of the lot, and at his best is second only to Rudisha, who is undoubtedly the greatest of all time. …..

3rd to Rudisha -> Kip -> Coe

…. Deano always goes crazy to try and show how Coe was the best no matter what kind of tactic or ability is mentioned. …

:) just a little. :)

Good points Luigi. It should be noted Coe was in WR form at the 1980 Games, and he couldn't really gain on Ovett in the homestretch while losing the 800. Coe ran the final 100 meters only .1 faster than Ovett. Ovett scorched the last lap, 50.8 I believe. That's the main reason Coe lost. Coe's top end 800 was much better than anyone else's at the time, but in a kicker's race from 300 on out, he wasn't so superior, as Ovett proved. This is why it's silly to say that Ryun or Snell or Morceli or whomever would have been constantly out kicked by the somewhat arrogant little fella from Hammersmith.

Manga Studio wrote:

Good points Luigi. It should be noted Coe was in WR form at the 1980 Games, and he couldn't really gain on Ovett in the homestretch while losing the 800. Coe ran the final 100 meters only .1 faster than Ovett. Ovett scorched the last lap, 50.8 I believe. That's the main reason Coe lost. Coe's top end 800 was much better than anyone else's at the time, but in a kicker's race from 300 on out, he wasn't so superior, as Ovett proved. This is why it's silly to say that Ryun or Snell or Morceli or whomever would have been constantly out kicked by the somewhat arrogant little fella from Hammersmith.

Another post which is statistically wrong and shows your ignorance.

For a start Ovett's last 400m in Moscow 80 final was 50.5 not 50.8.

Coe's was 50.7, but whereas Ovett ran his on the rails in lane 1, Coe was in lane 2 for both the last bends (the middle of lane 2 on the penultimate bend) meaning he ran a conservative estimate of 406.5m for the 2nd lap. That works out at sub 50 sec speed (c.49.8), 0.7 faster than Ovett.

Ovett's last 200m was 25.0, Coe's 24.9.

Ovett's last 100 was 12.7, Coe's 12.6.

Ovett ran maybe 200.5m, only slightly wide of the middle of lane 1 on entering the home straight) Coe more like 203m

Adjusted for distance run, Ovett's last 200 was worth 24.9, Coe's 24.5.

Coe's last curve was actually 12.2, but had he been in lane 1, it would have been 11.8!

Yet still Coe was faster in the last 100m. Coe's 'actual speed' was faster over the last 100, 200, 300 and 400, but he had to cover about 6further than Ovett.

So this example you give, rather than show Ovett had a better kick than Coe from 300 out actually shows the complete opposite.

Well done!

Ovett was also going for it with a lap to go, Coe was still asleep on the backstretch.

He ran the 3rd 200 section (that's from 400 out) in his 1:42.3 WR in 24.8, passing the rabbit at the beginning of bend, so it was more like 24.7. He obliterated Boit with a lap to go. Find me another faster burst from 400 out in a 1:42 or faster 800 than 24.8?

Strange that when they asked the WR milers and a panel of experts in 2004 who was the best miler of them all, Coe came out top above EL G. A recent poll in AW from readers also put Coe on top.

Ryun rarely makes the top 4 in any poll I've seen.

He never set a WR wire to wire, no, but then almost none of the other 1500 or milers did apart from the 2 you refer to. That doesn't make either Ryun or Bayi better because they ran from the front.

Coe ran a practically solo 3:31.9, as the rabbit was already 6m up by 300m, off a 52.4 first lap, which is far more impressive than Bayi's Mile WR of 3:51.0 (which is worth 3:33.9).

And let's not forget Bayi preferred running from the front. It was not a case of their not being rabbits, he just preferred running from the front.

Coe also ran from the front for the last 800m in his 79 1500 WR, a far longer time running from the front than most of the other 1500 or mile world record holders did in their respective races.

How can you say this! He never had the circumstances in which he needed to do this. That doesn't mean he couldn't do it. If he could run a last 200 wide in lane 2 in 24.1 in a 1:47 800m (equivalent to a 3:40 1500), which would have been more like a 23.7 if he'd been in lane 1, I'm sure he could have run sub 37 for 300 in a 3:38.

He ran a last 300 in 37.8 in the European Champs 86, where he ran c. 1525m (every bend in lane 2 or 3) in 3:41.6. That's worth sub 3:38 for 1500m.

And that 37.8 was off a previous 400 of 55.8.

Ryun's last 36.6 was off a previous 400 of 58.0.

You think Ryun would still have been able to run a 36.6 had the previous 400 been 2.2 secs faster!? Of course he wouldn't.

Nothing to do with his face. Look at pics/races of Coe in 76/77 when he was 20 compared to 1979. He was skinny all over in 77, with little definition on his legs. It was only after 2 years in the gym with George Gandy that he matured and developed his strength.

That's your opinion, which your entitled too, but there are more who disagree with you than agree, as IAAF, AW, and various other polls have shown.

And none of the others you mention have 2 Olympic 1500 titles or 3 Mile World records do they?

All the others you mention were predominantly 1500 men as well. Coe ran more 800s and far fewer 1500/miles than the other guys you mention.

Do you really believe that someone who can break 3 mile world records in his only 3 Mile races between 79 and 81, where the pacing was not ideal, couldn't have run significantly faster than the times he achieved in those events had he run them more often!

Having run far fewer 1500s than the others he still has a better statistical record in the 2 most important criteria, Olympic medals and WRs.

As Cram said in a documentary in 2012, "How do you beat someone who can handle any world record pace," in light of being 800 and 1000m world record holders, "and therefore can't be dropped with a long run for home, and yet possesses a devastating turn of speed in the home straight"

You are not being clear. Straub put in a great change in pace from 700 out and then maintained it, with another change in pace with a lap to go.

Coe had no problems with this long wind up in pace or changes in pace as was shown by his 12.1 last 100m.

Coe then won even more convincingly 4 years later off a very fast overall pace, a change in pace at the beginning of the last lap and then another burst from him in the home straight. Two very different types of races against the world's best. How many different types of scenario do you expect one athlete to run in?

He didn't win any where everyone sprinted a first 100m in 11 sec either, so what is the point?

Please give examples of these races where Cram, Aouita, etc put in a fantastic burst of speed at the bell and then maintained it? Cram didn't do it, that's for sure. He used to wind up the pace gradually from 3 to 400 out, which is completely different to a burst in speed at the bell.

More nonsense.

Who were these top guys who could churn out the last 300 during Coe's era and who he never raced against?

Have you actually watched the 1984 Olympic 800 final from LA?

Clerly not, as you would have known that Koeach led every step down the back stretch, nothing to do with Cruz picking up the pace.

You would also notice that Coe runs wide of Cruz for the entire race, running about 3 or 4m further over the duration of the race. Had he run the same distance as Cruz it would have been a lot closer. Cruz's advantage was in that he reached the last 100 having run less distance than Coe, who also clashed elbows with Jones about 90m out, causing him to lose his rhythm.

Coe was also using the rounds of the 8 to reach peak form for final of 15 a week later.

Coe wouldn't have been beaten by anyone, including Cram or Aouita, in that final in LA. There is no sense in suggesting someone with inferior 400 or 800 ability is going to pull away in the last 300m of a championship. Displaying a fast closing 400 in a one off circuit race is completely different to doing it in an intense championship final over 3 rounds (7 in Coe's case). Even then, Coe's last 100m and 800m in LA were both faster than Cram's in his Mile WR the following year.

Aouita was down to run against Coe in Paris 83, but pulled out. He could have run against Coe in LA, but chose (for his own reasons) to run the 5000m.

Coe only ran 1 major race after LA, before getting injured, and that was the Zurich 1500. There are conflicting accounts of that meet, and it certainly isn't clear who was avoiding who. If you look at their performances and stats for their respective races, comparable 3:32 and 3:49 mile, then you can see that Coe's closing speed was more impressive.

He ran the 3rd 200 section (that's from 400 out) in his 1:42.3 WR in 24.8, passing the rabbit at the beginning of bend, so it was more like 24.7. He obliterated Boit with a lap to go. Find me another faster burst from 400 out in a 1:42 or faster 800 than 24.8?

Strange that when they asked the WR milers and a panel of experts in 2004 who was the best miler of them all, Coe came out top above EL G. A recent poll in AW from readers also put Coe on top.

Ryun rarely makes the top 4 in any poll I've seen.

He never set a WR wire to wire, no, but then almost none of the other 1500 or milers did apart from the 2 you refer to. That doesn't make either Ryun or Bayi better because they ran from the front.

Coe ran a practically solo 3:31.9, as the rabbit was already 6m up by 300m, off a 52.4 first lap, which is far more impressive than Bayi's Mile WR of 3:51.0 (which is worth 3:33.9).

And let's not forget Bayi preferred running from the front. It was not a case of their not being rabbits, he just preferred running from the front.

Coe also ran from the front for the last 800m in his 79 1500 WR, a far longer time running from the front than most of the other 1500 or mile world record holders did in their respective races.

How can you say this! He never had the circumstances in which he needed to do this. That doesn't mean he couldn't do it. If he could run a last 200 wide in lane 2 in 24.1 in a 1:47 800m (equivalent to a 3:40 1500), which would have been more like a 23.7 if he'd been in lane 1, I'm sure he could have run sub 37 for 300 in a 3:38.

He ran a last 300 in 37.8 in the European Champs 86, where he ran c. 1525m (every bend in lane 2 or 3) in 3:41.6. That's worth sub 3:38 for 1500m.

And that 37.8 was off a previous 400 of 55.8.

Ryun's last 36.6 was off a previous 400 of 58.0.

You think Ryun would still have been able to run a 36.6 had the previous 400 been 2.2 secs faster!? Of course he wouldn't.

Nothing to do with his face. Look at pics/races of Coe in 76/77 when he was 20 compared to 1979. He was skinny all over in 77, with little definition on his legs. It was only after 2 years in the gym with George Gandy that he matured and developed his strength.

That's your opinion, which your entitled too, but there are more who disagree with you than agree, as IAAF, AW, and various other polls have shown.

And none of the others you mention have 2 Olympic 1500 titles or 3 Mile World records do they?

All the others you mention were predominantly 1500 men as well. Coe ran more 800s and far fewer 1500/miles than the other guys you mention.

Do you really believe that someone who can break 3 mile world records in his only 3 Mile races between 79 and 81, where the pacing was not ideal, couldn't have run significantly faster than the times he achieved in those events had he run them more often!

Having run far fewer 1500s than the others he still has a better statistical record in the 2 most important criteria, Olympic medals and WRs.

As Cram said in a documentary in 2012, "How do you beat someone who can handle any world record pace," in light of being 800 and 1000m world record holders, "and therefore can't be dropped with a long run for home, and yet possesses a devastating turn of speed in the home straight"

You are not being clear. Straub put in a great change in pace from 700 out and then maintained it, with another change in pace with a lap to go.

Coe had no problems with this long wind up in pace or changes in pace as was shown by his 12.1 last 100m.

Coe then won even more convincingly 4 years later off a very fast overall pace, a change in pace at the beginning of the last lap and then another burst from him in the home straight. Two very different types of races against the world's best. How many different types of scenario do you expect one athlete to run in?

He didn't win any where everyone sprinted a first 100m in 11 sec either, so what is the point?

Please give examples of these races where Cram, Aouita, etc put in a fantastic burst of speed at the bell and then maintained it? Cram didn't do it, that's for sure. He used to wind up the pace gradually from 3 to 400 out, which is completely different to a burst in speed at the bell.

More nonsense.

Who were these top guys who could churn out the last 300 during Coe's era and who he never raced against?

Have you actually watched the 1984 Olympic 800 final from LA?

Clerly not, as you would have known that Koeach led every step down the back stretch, nothing to do with Cruz picking up the pace.

You would also notice that Coe runs wide of Cruz for the entire race, running about 3 or 4m further over the duration of the race. Had he run the same distance as Cruz it would have been a lot closer. Cruz's advantage was in that he reached the last 100 having run less distance than Coe, who also clashed elbows with Jones about 90m out, causing him to lose his rhythm.

Coe was also using the rounds of the 8 to reach peak form for final of 15 a week later.

Coe wouldn't have been beaten by anyone, including Cram or Aouita, in that final in LA. There is no sense in suggesting someone with inferior 400 or 800 ability is going to pull away in the last 300m of a championship. Displaying a fast closing 400 in a one off circuit race is completely different to doing it in an intense championship final over 3 rounds (7 in Coe's case). Even then, Coe's last 100m and 800m in LA were both faster than Cram's in his Mile WR the following year.

Aouita was down to run against Coe in Paris 83, but pulled out. He could have run against Coe in LA, but chose (for his own reasons) to run the 5000m.

Coe only ran 1 major race after LA, before getting injured, and that was the Zurich 1500. There are conflicting accounts of that meet, and it certainly isn't clear who was avoiding who. If you look at their performances and stats for their respective races, comparable 3:32 and 3:49 mile, then you can see that Coe's closing speed was more impressive.

Deanouk wrote:

Strange that when they asked the WR milers and a panel of experts in 2004 who was the best miler of them all, Coe came out top above EL G. A recent poll in AW from readers also put Coe on top.

Ryun rarely makes the top 4 in any poll I've seen.

A british magazine ranked coe on top?

Shocking!

Talk to Peter Snell, who attended the 40th anniversary party of the sub 4 minute mile, and ask him about how they all felt about Ryun.

This deano cat goes effin' bonkers.

If you say Coe at his best had the best homestretch kick of any 800 guy in history he'll agree. If you say someone else had a better ability at something else he'll go into spine twisting contortions to show Lord Coe as the greatest of all time at any point on the track, and off the track able to take care of the starving by waving his scrawny arms and producing loaves, fishes and wine.

Coe was beaten in 80 at the 800 because Ovett ran a smarter and tougher race. And the pace being slow negated Coe's speed endurance. All this crap about Coe being asleep during the last lap is nonsense. Coe found that he wasn't much faster than the other guys off a slow pace when they hit the backstretch. In the homestretch Ovett was a big target and Coe only ran 1/10th faster over the last 100 meters.

A better run from 400 to 600 than Coe's record in ''79? Hmmm. For starters I think Rudisha's ballsy performance in London to win the Gold. He ran the race the way Coe should have tried to run championship races. Rudisha knew that in a tactical race there was the chance he could be outkicked so he grabbed the race by the scruff of the neck. Balls. Much more courageous than Coe in a championship event. Ever.

I honestly think in a slow or moderately paced 800 Coe could kick down Rudisha in the homestretch IF Rudisha waited until the last 100 / 150 to go all out. But if Rudisha took off with 300 to go after a fast OR slow first 400 he would beat Coe. Just as I agree with others thar some of history's great milers would handle Coe in a fast or slow race with all other considerations equal. Heck, that film of Ryun in Dusseldorf is amazing. No one could have waited until the homestretch to kick against him after having to run from from 1200 to 1400 in under 24 seconds. Ryun was ahead of his time. Shame what happened to him.

I don't know what "vote" Deano is remarking on when he speaks of the mile record holders stating Coe was the greatest. At the 40th Anniversary gathering of Bannister's first sub 4, according to Peter Snell the runners felt Ryun had the most natural ability and potential.

Personally I think Steve Cram is overlooked. His 1985 mile record was amazing, showing a kick over the last 400 Coe could never match at his best - 53.2 for last 400 and 25.5 for the last 200. Coe was a fantastic runner but it doesn't mean he was the best kicker. Morceli constantly produced searing finishes faster than anything Coe provided in the 1500 and mile. And Ryun was producing finishes on dirt that you have to agree would be even faster on today's mondo.

Comparing runners from different eras is actually hard to do and skmewhst unfair. The runners from the past were aiming at slower records. As a side note I think the 800 has been a bit stagnant compared to other events over the years because a lot of guys who could have set records or have made a mark in the event concentrated on the 1500 or in some cases the 400.

Ryun had a withering kick. Considering his training and then the absurd amount of races he had to run during the collegiate indoor and outdoor seasons it's surprising he ran as well as he did in terms of records. Ryun did demonstrate a peerless drive over the last 300 in comparison to his contemporaries like Keino and Tummler. Coe's own remarks about the differences between dirt and synthetic tracks make Ryun's performances all the more special.

Coe was not the greatest last lap kicker in the 1500. Ryun was amazing for his day. But overall Morceli is the man. Consistent 51-53 second finishes in fast races. He would have buried Coe in a race of all time greats. Buried him.

Go to the link and watch the newsreel. Coe never pulled off something like that. Give Ryun credit where credit is due.

You're right in that comparing runners from different eras is a waste of time in a lot of respects.

Deanouk and ventolin^3 are both insane. Track fans have a good idea of what different runners could and could not do. Ryun was not a 3:40 miler, Coe was not a 1:40 800 runner. But the two King Trolls will write Russian novel length posts if you disagree with either of them.

That German race is interesting. In that type of race it would seem no miler could match Ryun. In that type of race. Doesn't mean he couldn't be beaten in another type of race. Same goes for Coe even at his very best. At his very best he did lose to Ovett in the Moscow 800.

new englander wrote:

Talk to Peter Snell, who attended the 40th anniversary party of the sub 4 minute mile, and ask him about how they all felt about Ryun.

You and the other guy who mentioned this are correct. Kenny Moore (marathoner, SI writer) noted it as well. The runners were all in awe of Ryun's potential and speed and knew of his misguided training. Coe was regarded as very scientifically trained in comparison to runners like Ryun, Filbert Bayi and Herb Elliott.

I like this post. I agree. Jim Ryun was one of the most perfect natural specimens for 1500 running ever and Kiprop reminds me a lot of Ryun.

And I agree Ovett was more naturallty talented than Coe but Coe was better coached.

Jim Ryun was like a David Rudisha. His 3:51.0 mile all alone from the gun and 53 last lap from 1967 AAU reminds me of Rudisha in the 800 aat London.