Hogtown wrote: Last time I checked, a day is a 24 hour period.
Yes, but within a 24-hour period is not the same thins as within a single day. Mr. Obvious got/quoted the rule incorrectly. Check the link provided by Knows it All for the actual rule language from the actual USADA website.
Oh, and users of inhalers should make sure they know they actual rule. Don't believe you can take several puffs before 11:59 pm the night before a race, and take some more puffs to get to 1600 mg limit before your race on the following day. It is a 24-hour limit. It is not a per day start-to-end limit.
runnnnnnn800 wrote:
Disagree with both of yall.
Asthma meds have no improvement on lung function for non-asthmatics, and can make performance worse.
1. Real Life Proof: I've taken numerous pulmonary function
tests where you sit in closed chamber and they measure lung volume, forced expiratory flow, diffusion rate etc before/after taking ventolin. The guy running the tests says he tests himself once a month for years now, and he see's no measurable improvement in his numbers after taking ventolin, nor does he see it in his non-asthmatic test subjects.
2. Theoretical Proof - read the numerous studies many people have already posted.
3. British Medical association test for asthma - it's different than USA, and very simple, they give the meds, if you lung function improves by more than a trivial amount, you're declared asthmatic. Their rates are roughly the same as USA, they're not giving asthma meds to everyone who takes the test, therefore it does not offer improvement to everyone.
4. Worsen performance - ventolin raise HR, blood pressure, lowers potassium levels, causes tremors, headaches and a host of other issues. Jr/HS kids take ventolin for thrills, sucking on it till they pass out. These are not things you want to happen before a race.
Can it improve performance in non-asthmatics? Sure, as others pointed out, placebo affect is very strong. You can also get similar results by miscounting laps like Will Leer in the Millrose mile.
Who cares about lung capacity anyway? Predicted lung function measurements tables are racially based from studying thousand of people, and guess what: pound for pound, African Americans have 10% lower predicted values, yet they clean up in running for all distances. How can they do that with smaller lung capacity/force? Because the lung volume/force is not the limiting factor in running, it's power, lactic acid tolerance, endurance, heart function etc. Think about, if you were evolving a species, would you put the limiting factor upstream of all other processes, especially considering all the downstream processes can improve tremendously from training, whereas lung function is relatively static? Course not, you evolve the lungs as the widest part of the energy funnel.
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Running is a job for some people, and preventing them from doing their life's work by denying medication is unfair and downright dangerous. Josh Harding is the #1 goalie in the NHL right now, and he has MS. MS, like asthma, is an caused by an overactive immune system. Should he stop taking MS meds that dampen his immune system to prevent it from attacking the myelin sheath around his nerves, and thereby lose his job and eventually his life? Likewise anyone with lupus, MS, fibromyalgia, rheumatoid arthritis, allergies, excema etc, the meds dampen affects of overactive immune system, they're not cheating by boosting things like RBC from EPO, HGH, Testosterone or underperforming thyroid.
Every day in the USA alone, 9 people die from asthma (2007 numbers). Every freaking day. If you've got this threat in the back of your mind, taking meds to dampen down your immune system is the most obvious and sane thing to do.
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Bottom line, if you don't have asthma don't waste time/money trying to tweaking your lungs with drugs, just get off your ass and train more, and train smarter.
Small typo above, "African Americans" should have said "African heritage"
Skeptic of it All wrote:
Inhalers help those with asthma, which is cheating. Their genetics and body is weak and need artificial means to be "normal." In my opinion there should be no chemical enhancement or medication of any kind. But I'm in the minority there. You should run with what nature, or God, or whatever gave you.
This is the rational that athletes have. Lance Armstrong used epo and testosterone under the precept in with one nut he was just getting back to normal.
Both are cheating.
Totally agree.
Hey, my red blood cells don't carry as much oxygen as a normal man my age. Since I'm not "normal", can I take drugs to boost myself to "normal"? It's only fair, right!?
Percentage of asthmatics in general population estimated at 10%. Percentage of Australian swimmers in London with asthma 40%, American swimmers 50%. Athletes at the Winter Olympics in Lillehammer over 60%.
Hmmmmmmm. No advantage??
Think about it.
If indeed the triggers for asthma are small particles in dust, pollution, pollen and various chemicals, to which I have no disagreement, then how exactly is breathing more going to help???? All that happens then is breathing more of the offending substances, which does NOT reduce asthma.
Neither does taking medications reduce the amount of dust etc, that are increasinly breathed in when BREATHING MORE.
Thus breathing more is NOT a solution for asthma, and neither is the taking of various medications.
J.R. wrote:
Think about it.
If indeed the triggers for asthma are small particles in dust, pollution, pollen and various chemicals, to which I have no disagreement, then how exactly is breathing more going to help???? All that happens then is breathing more of the offending substances, which does NOT reduce asthma.
Neither does taking medications reduce the amount of dust etc, that are increasinly breathed in when BREATHING MORE.
Thus breathing more is NOT a solution for asthma, and neither is the taking of various medications.
Yet it works for many people. It might not be the best solution, but in many cases it is certainly A solution.
Not sure why you are so opposed to doctors and medication, i think we both know plenty of people tend to go "science says so, it must be right" way to fast and easy; and with WAY too much confidence, but at the same time not every idea that medicine/science comes up with is bullsht or quackery.
Garto wrote:
Yet it works for many people. It might not be the best solution, but in many cases it is certainly A solution.
What exactly is the it to which you refer.
Not sure why you are so opposed to doctors and medication, i think we both know plenty of people tend to go "science says so, it must be right" way to fast and easy; and with WAY too much confidence, but at the same time not every idea that medicine/science comes up with is bullsht or quackery.
Even a non working clock is right twice a day.
Trying reading posts other than those that support your POV. Asthma meds don't improve lung function in non-asthmatics. Asthmatics taking meds are lucky to get their lung function returned to normal, many don't. They will not get it beyond normal. RBC/HGH/T are different, a healthy body will return those values to normal given time, but it will never return lung function to normal in an asthmatic unless they are given anti-inflammatories, and even then they are generally compromised. If you break your leg does that mean you can't wear a cast, and never get physio, but if you don't it will never work like normal again?
Nice cherry picking of data - the reason swimmers have high asthma rates is because they're spending 3-5 hours/day breathing in chlorine gas, which is known to cause asthma and destroy lungs. They used it in WWI as chemical warfare agent.
J.R. wrote:
Think about it.
If indeed the triggers for asthma are small particles in dust, pollution, pollen and various chemicals, to which I have no disagreement, then how exactly is breathing more going to help???? ...
Thus breathing more is NOT a solution for asthma, and neither is the taking of various medications.
Asthma has many pathways, unrelated to pollen/chemicals etc. Food, drink, emotions, even weather pressure changes can trigger attacks. Also, you can't reduce your breathing running e.g. 800m, you're breathing at maximal ventolation rate for the latter half of the race anyway, in fact most every mid-d and long-d race.
"Reduced Breathing" is inapplicable therapy to most fit runners anyway. I agree, if you're an obese mouth breather, then the practice of slow nose breathing will help, at the very least it will reduce drying out of lung tissues, and have a meditative quality. But a fit runner is already breathing very lightly at rest and prob thru their nose,
As for my experience, after a week of breathing practices i was able to reduce my breathing to twice/minute while driving on the highway, kept if up for 25 minutes, could easily have gone longer. Sitting still in a chair i could breath once per minute for 10 minutes (no biggie, world record for breath holding is longer than that!). Blood tests show that my Co2 blood saturation was extremely high, at upper limits. Raising Co2 is what Buteyko says is the goal of reduced breathing as it's a natural broncho-dilator and supposed to cure all disease (quackwatch alert!). Yet despite this "reduced breathing" i had absolutely no improvement on my (adult onset) asthma.
Ray wrote:
Percentage of asthmatics in general population estimated at 10%. Percentage of Australian swimmers in London with asthma 40%, American swimmers 50%. Athletes at the Winter Olympics in Lillehammer over 60%.
Hmmmmmmm. No advantage??
General population with stress fractures - 0.003
Runners with stress fractures - 8.2%
General population with ITB and Achilles Tendonosis - 1.2%
Runners with Achilles Tendonosis 18%
Dang, those runners are still faster then the general population, so we can easily improve general population running ability by giving them stress fractures, ITB and AT.
Dufus Alert wrote:....
Fail, Dufus. You are comparing apples to oranges. You seem to be a puffer of inhalants.
I was diagnosed with asthma after I started running. The chances are that I always have had asthma but that running increased my exposure to allergens.
All my asthma attacks have been within a few minutes of finishing a run.
Research has proven that instances of asthma are much higher among runners and other endurance athletes that exercise outdoors are much higher than among the general population.
Numerous peer-review studies have conclude that Ventolin is of no benefit to a non-asthmatic.
^^^^Asthma is much higher among runners and endurance athletes bc many people that "have it" dont and use it to get a performance advantage!
J.R. wrote:
Think about it.
If indeed the triggers for asthma are small particles in dust, pollution, pollen and various chemicals, to which I have no disagreement, then how exactly is breathing more going to help???? All that happens then is breathing more of the offending substances, which does NOT reduce asthma.
Neither does taking medications reduce the amount of dust etc, that are increasinly breathed in when BREATHING MORE.
Thus breathing more is NOT a solution for asthma, and neither is the taking of various medications.
Inhaling a particle triggers an inflammatory response.
The immediate treatment is to inhale a Beta agonist,
which binds to a receptor in the lungs and launches a
biochemical chain leading to vasodilation.
Doctors prescribe an inhaled corticosteroid to inhibit
the inflammatory response.
It is also possible that the inhaled corticosteroid stops
the Beta receptors from downregulating in response to too
much agonist.
This was all published 30 years ago.
Dufus Alert wrote:
Ray wrote:Percentage of asthmatics in general population estimated at 10%. Percentage of Australian swimmers in London with asthma 40%, American swimmers 50%. Athletes at the Winter Olympics in Lillehammer over 60%.
Hmmmmmmm. No advantage??
General population with stress fractures - 0.003
Runners with stress fractures - 8.2%
General population with ITB and Achilles Tendonosis - 1.2%
Runners with Achilles Tendonosis 18%
Dang, those runners are still faster then the general population, so we can easily improve general population running ability by giving them stress fractures, ITB and AT.
Oh I see, competing in the Winter Olympics gives you asthma.
Care to try again?
You are certainly an alert dufus
Anecdotal evidence from a number of elite athletes tells me there is an advantage. Research says no. I'm not ready to say one way or the other,
But the numbers I posted are interesting. I also agree that chlorine exposure is not good. I wouldn't equate to exposure to mustard gas. And, if it causes the incidence of asthma to rise at that rate, then concussions in football are not the biggest issue in sport safety, swimming is.
Ray wrote:
Oh I see, competing in the Winter Olympics gives you asthma.
Try running in 20 degrees.
I do and have for about 120 days a year as have most runners in the northeast and upper mid west.
I do and have for about 120 days a year as have most runners in the northeast and upper mid west.