Hardloper wrote:
Exhibit A: Rupp runs a 13:01 season opener in January. Score another for Eamon Coglann and the indoor track engineers.
It being January has nothing to do with it.
Salazar athletes peak twice pear year.
Indoor ends in early march. It is about 8 weeks until the end of indoor.
Early September (end of outdoor season) - 8 weeks = mid July
Running fast in mid July is not unusual.
If there is a difference it isn't substantial. Also less variables to worry about in indoor races, Rupp especially. The BU track has solid turns and a sick hydrolic system that give a slight springboard effect. I could see an outdoor track and BU having little to no difference in performance. Some athletes are better suited tho.
Bean Cage Hill wrote:
But have any of you guys ever run at BU?
My PRs are far faster there than anywhere else. It leads me to conclude that the track is short.
Definitely faster.
Ran there in 07 and 08, went 1:54 in the 800, then went 1:53 outdoors. Also split 49 indoor at bu and split 48 outoors. I found I typically peaked indoors pretty well, training through a long fall. I would usually place higher in leagues indoor versus outdoors. So I guess that means I found outdoor tracks faster than BU. My indoor 800 was also within a second comparing BU and a flat track.
2 people have danced around the real reason this indoor track is faster but no one has said it.
Its the damn BOUNCE effect you get from hitting and getting propelled an extra few centimeters per stride. Don't believe me? Look at gymnasts on their floor routine as they get huge strides and hops off the floor that has extra bounce in it. Put same athletes on a regular padded floor and they can't get as high or cover the same distance.
The amount of bounce on the good tracks is significant but has enough stability that you don't lose stability unless you are running high on the bank.
Suck on these physics, bioch: the angle of the dangle is equal to the heat of the beat when the throb of the knob is constant.
I believes you and loves to bounce
I have to think that 13:01 is as fast as Rupp could do right now on an outdoor track.
12:58 is his all time best but he certainly raced himself into that shape.
It's a heck of a season opener on any track.
It's pretty obvious that some of the posters on this thread have not raced on a banked indoor track, and certainly not at the Reggie Lewis, which probably holds the most World Records, and certainly the most American Records, of any indoor track.
I always thought that one of the main benefits of racing on an indoor track was the ease of consistent pacing, but that is not really a question of physics. I am not a physicist, but I have some observations through racing indoors on the Reggie Lewis through high school and college.
1. The lack of air resistance is one of the biggest benefits. For one thing, there are no cross winds at all. If you are drafting behind someone, they are truly buffering the air, and your saved energy is noticeable. For this reason alone, an evenly rabbited indoor track race is probably faster than any possible outdoor race- because wind resistance, I would argue, is a much greater energy drain than running on a tighter curved track.
2. On the bends, even in lane one, the Reggie Lewis track bounces, because it is on a raised platform. I have always thought that it had the highest energy return of any track I have ever run on, including brand-new outdoor Mondo tracks.
3. Lane one is moderately banked, so I don't know what some of the posters were talking about. Obviously, Galen runs faster than you or I. The faster you are running, the more the bank works in your favor...at least in terms of distance races.
4. My coach always said that racing at Reggie Lewis was like racing on a downhill track (yes I know, it doesn't make sense). The reason being, that if you are moving fast enough, your momentum will carry you uphill on the bank, and when you come off the bank, you are effectively running downhill. I am not sure if that is scientifically correct, but it always seemed true to me.
Yeah, that last part isn't scientifically correct. Your insight was correct.
Hard|oper wrote:
Suck on these physics, bioch: the angle of the dangle is equal to the heat of the beat when the throb of the knob is constant.
Wow good point. You probably convinced me with that solid argument.
better quotes:
“I think it’s an illegally fast track,” said Alberto Salazar
“If you’re going to go for records,” said Salazar, “this is the place to go.”
The new BU track is like the Boston Symphony hall of running. You can mathematically design an acoustically ideal concert hall just like you can calculate the ideal track characteristics, but there are so many variables involved that getting it just right takes a bit of intuition and luck. The old BU track was pretty fast, but was just a bit too extreme with its steep banks and bounciness. They toned those features down with the new track, and got it just right.
If there is actually any extra energy lost from running on a banked 200m track vs an outdoor track it's made up for by other factors. These include always-perfect temp (don't discount this - we're not talking about the hypothetical ideal outdoor conditions that rarely exist here) and wind and the energy return from a bouncy track. There is a huge psychological boost as well - the loud and in-your-face crowd, the tight turns, and the feeling of running on bouncy, banked corners are something you just have to experience.
By the way, 5% seems just a tad off- you're saying that Rupp could have run a 12:22 outdoors.
Bump.
BU is faster than most outdoor tracks, but only because of it’s near perfect conditions.
If you could take the same athlete and throw them in Monaco I’m sure they would run faster.
most banked indoor tracks are faster than any outdoor track. The number of athletes with pb's indoor vs outdoor is proof enough. Nobody, even if they "peak twice a year" or whatever, is gonna have the same intensity of racing or quality competition indoors.
Kejelcha can't run his indoor mile time outdoors, not even at Monaco. Banked turns are worth far more than people seem to realize.
I want to agree with you, but there are two issues.
1. You’re building off of my point as far as “perfect conditions” go. The crowd and competition play a big part in keeping up the pace indoor and it’s really hard to replicate that outdoors. We have seen it done before, though. Take this years Bowerman 5k with Lomong, Centro, and Kincaid. If that race were done indoors, I’m not sure they would have run faster... unless.
2. Hardloper made a point earlier in the thread, he said given the way tracks are measured, it’s possible that a runner could end up running up to 5 meters less per mile on an indoor bank. If that’s true, then there is still an argument to be made whether or not some of these runners are running objectively faster.
In addition to some of the things mentioned here (the perfect bounce and turns, ideal temp, crowd noise), I would add that the air quality plays into it. If you’ve ever raced at the Armory, you know just how hard it is to breathe afterward. Terrible air/dust inside. I would nearly hack up a lung. But post-BU races always felt pleasant.
The bounciness always felt like the biggest factor for me. I found it just felt easier on the legs and fun to run 1k–mile races there.
Bu has 40m straights and 60m turns, not legal for championship races. That is why they don't host major championships. That along with the bounce is why it is son damn fast.
Bad Wigins wrote:
most banked indoor tracks are faster than any outdoor track. The number of athletes with pb's indoor vs outdoor is proof enough
Awesome, where is this list of athlete pbs?
To counter your claim which you've pulled out of your butt, I ran faster outdoors than on the BU track. Anecdote for anecdote.
It also depends how fast you're going. For example, at a track like Washington or ND, it feels like an outdoor track that's completely shaded from the wind and will always be at a good temperature. Similarly, BU's banked track is the 2017 Vaporfly of tracks
He is right.