Ryun's incredible 3'38.2 in '67 - Cordner Nelson account

Of course if Ryun ran with some guts he wouldn't have to finish like that. He could have easily won just running even 55's - so 3.26 - and broken the WR by a wide margin. Always taking the easy way, no wonder he couldn't win the Olympics.

Hey Scizo, you are always harping on about faster times IF the athlete ran at an even pace. However, world records are rarely broken in even paced runs. If you knew anything about middle distance running, you'd understand that the best way to run fast is to NOT run even splits. Calculate what percentage of world middle distance records were achieved off an uneven pace. The numbers don't lie.

Post these numbers for comparison.

Percentage of world middle distance records achieved off an uneven pace:

Percentage of world middle distance records achieved off an even pace:

My guess is 95 percent of world middle distance world records were achieved off an uneven pace.

Head doc wrote:

Hey Scizo, you are always harping on about faster times IF the athlete ran at an even pace. However, world records are rarely broken in even paced runs. If you knew anything about middle distance running, you'd understand that the best way to run fast is to NOT run even splits. Calculate what percentage of world middle distance records were achieved off an uneven pace. The numbers don't lie.

Post these numbers for comparison.

Percentage of world middle distance records achieved off an uneven pace:

Percentage of world middle distance records achieved off an even pace:

My guess is 95 percent of world middle distance world records were achieved off an uneven pace.

Not in the last two decades. Most record attempt FAILURES in the age of rabbiting result from poor pacing. Personally, I believe that for any given athlete to achieve their time potential, they ought to run nearly even splits. In the eighties, people would race each other to world records. For the most part, I think that rabbiting has done away with this.

Post the percentages not you personal opinion. Percentage of middle distance world records achieved through uneven pace.

Head doc wrote:

Hey Scizo, you are always harping on about faster times IF the athlete ran at an even pace. However, world records are rarely broken in even paced runs. If you knew anything about middle distance running, you'd understand that the best way to run fast is to NOT run even splits. Calculate what percentage of world middle distance records were achieved off an uneven pace. The numbers don't lie.

Post these numbers for comparison.

Percentage of world middle distance records achieved off an uneven pace:

Percentage of world middle distance records achieved off an even pace:

My guess is 95 percent of world middle distance world records were achieved off an uneven pace.

The "numbers" have nothing to do with the truth. This is a matter of physics not statistics. Even paces are better.

Deanouk: In the history of the world, have finishing splits--as printed in a magazine or newspaper--for the last 100, 200, 300, 400, etc. of a race ever been incorrect?

Are there any examples where a runner is alleged to have run the last lap of fraction thereof significantly faster than he actually did?

Question for Deanouk wrote:

Deanouk: In the history of the world, have finishing splits--as printed in a magazine or newspaper--for the last 100, 200, 300, 400, etc. of a race ever been incorrect?

Are there any examples where a runner is alleged to have run the last lap of fraction thereof significantly faster than he actually did?

Yes. I can think of 2 very obvious ones.

1) Aouita's last 100m in his 3:29.71 2nd place to Cram in Nice in 1985.

At the time it was reported that it was 11.8, even in Athletic magazines like AW. I knew straight away that there was a mistake and indeed it was. On some tracks the 100m from home is not always clearly marked on the inside lane. On the Nice track they had a mark at 110m from home and 90m from home. They took his time of 11.8 from the 90m mark. His last 100m was later rectified and published in the IAAF book at c. 13.3. Close scrutiny of the video footage and the knowledge that his last 90m was 11.8, would tend to conclude that his last 100m was nearer to 13.1. But it certainly wasn't 11.8.

2) Ryun's last 440 yds in his 3:51.1 WR Mile was quoted at the time as being 52.5. That is the time that they still had for him in the 2007 edition of the IAAF Progression of World Records book. I wrote to let Richard Hyams know about this some time ago.

There is a video of this race on Youtube and he clearly goes through the bell in 2:57.3; meaning his last 1/4 was 53.8 NOT 52.5.

Another couple off the top of my head are: - Bile's last 800m in the 87 World Champs 1500 was given as 1:46.0, when in fact it was 1:46.9.

- Ovett's last 200m in the 1978 European 1500m final was quoted as being 24.8 in both AW & T&FN, when it was 25.7 (last 100m in 13.4). Again, close analysis of the race shows this.

3:06 into the video, when Ovett passes the 1300m line/point at 3:09.9

So there are mistakes made, some by quite a bit.

incredible how strong he looks the whole way leading and running through the tape, never tiring, and what could he have run on that day with a pacer out in 56 and led to 1100 on a 1999 Mondo track?

jjjjjjjj wrote:incredible how strong he looks the whole way leading and running through the tape, never tiring, and what could he have run on that day with a pacer out in 56 and led to 1100 on a 1999 Mondo track?

i suggest you try more like

"with a pacer lapping 55.4 to bell"

i have never run on a 1999 mondo but on '70s synthetics

i have no idea what he wouda run on a 1999 mondo, just what he couda run on a '70s synthetic

i am no way ever his fan

but cold, hard analysis has offered me no other option

the ryun of coliseum/dusseldorf was, by a quantum level beyond anything that has ever lined up for a 800/1k/1500/mile

he wouda absolutely crushed anything offered up at those distances in a race of any description

Amazing finish just wish we could see this

What does 3:24 equate to at Mexico City altitude? Could he have won gold if he had the bottle to follow Keino?

Doclove wrote:Amazing finish just wish we could see this

i'm having doubts owner of dvd actually has it

he won't comment on norpoth obstructing him for the 400 - 300 out

What does 3:24 equate to at Mexico City altitude? Could he have won gold if he had the bottle to follow Keino?

mono + hamstring injury destroyed him for '68 & the mono finished him from post-viral-fatigue syndrome for athletics life even if recovered from hamstring

ncaa altitude app

( + accounting for solo for last 800 + uneven pace )

gives keino that day as

1'43-low/mid / 3'26-mid

you simply have to ask yourself, what sea-level 1500 wouda allow you to run 3'34.9 at 7,300+ in manner run, in that smogfest ???

keino likely fractionally better than morceli level that day

( i dare not account for huge number of races in his legs to that point, let alone legend he had to run 1 mile to stadium for 1500 final !!! )

ryun maybe that meet in

1'42-low/mid / 3'29

it's a huge pity he non-performed in 800 trials when still trying to recover some semblance of shape

if he'd got the berth, i still see him shadowing doubell & still enough health left to have taken 4 or 5m out of him/nixon by finish

you can't give Keino the NCAA altitude adjustment, because he is an altitude born and raised runner. That works for sea level runners going up to and down from altitude.

I'm not following you where you're giving Ryun 35.3 in the 3:38.2. Maybe deanouk had a slower 1200 split that you're using?

Hard to criticize a guy who closed in 2:46.6 w/1:50 (solo?) on a dirt track. That's a guy who might have mopped up on El Guerrouj.

No amount of talent, real or imagined, will help you beat the best milers in the world in international championship racing if you FAIL TO EXECUTE when it counts. Essentially, what you are saying is that Jim Ryun ran the race of his life when it didn't matter for sh*t. At least Alan Webb got the American mile record when he he ran his race of a life-time when it didn't matter for sh*t. There are many runners out there who didn't fulfill their potential. There are a million IF scenarios that could be applied to any runner. Track and field is about results, not IFs!

jjjjjjjj wrote:

you can't give Keino the NCAA altitude adjustment, because he is an altitude born and raised runner. That works for sea level runners going up to and down from altitude.

I'm not following you where you're giving Ryun 35.3 in the 3:38.2. Maybe deanouk had a slower 1200 split that you're using?

Hard to criticize a guy who closed in 2:46.6 w/1:50 (solo?) on a dirt track. That's a guy who might have mopped up on El Guerrouj.

Of course Keino wasn't capable of 3:26 when he won in 68. Those conversions cannot take into consideration the fact that no 2 athletes are exactly the same, and Keino was born at altitude and raced at altitude often. He had plenty of opportunities of repeating his run at sea level and on synthetic but never bettered 3:34, let alone threatening sub 3:30.

His last 300m in Dusseldorf was 36.5/36.6.

He did not run his 3:33.1 solo. He had Keino pacing and drafting him up to 1200m. His last 800m was 1:50.5, again with 500 of that drafted.

impress me

what 1500 ability wouda a sea-level guy need, to have run in mexico : best part of a 10k, coupla 5ks with a disappointing silver, at least a 1500m heat, then allegedly get stuck in traffic from 1500 final, needing a 1 mile run just to get to start line, then amble the start, run furiously to reach it in 56.1, then run last 2 laps solo with a 55+ finish !!!???

what 1500 time for a sea-level born guy ???

they are though likely to be very ballpark for everyone

you are clueless about keino

as i have told you many times, upto games he was a part-time athlete, holding down a near full-time job

for games, jomo ordered a training camp as he wanted international prestige & for a 2 - 3 weeks before games, he coud train flat-out for 1st time in his life

he was never afforded that opportunity before & only again in '72 when well past his peak & returning from virtual retirement

he was in peak shape of his life in mexico

again you fail to read or watch

the vid shows him running the 2nd bend in lane 2 trying to catch keino - no drafting there & ~ 3.5m extra run

& we don't have full race on vid to know if how close or wide he ran behind keino to 1200

you also seem to be incapable of understanding basic physics :

a 5'9 runt is not going to offer a 6'2 guy much drafting

To get back to the original topic : Ryun's closing speed in this race.

Simple question ; both Norpoth and Tummler were noted last lap finishers. How far was Ryun in front of them? Did they slow dramatically once they realised they were beaten? If they ran the sort of last 300 they would normally be expected to run in a relatively slow run race this would add credibility to the super fast closing splits claimed for Ryun.

Also , the talk about Ryun's closing 800 is not in the least relevant ; in this race the pace appears to have been slow certainly until the last 400 - indeed the real action may well have started even after the bell sounded. In these circumstances it is certainly possible for a well conditioned athlete to run VERY fast over a relatively short distance such as 300m. If the pace had been lifted from , say , 600 out such speed over the last 300 would have been much less likely.

Finally . Ryun's closing pace in his 1:44.9 880 yards WR suggests the splits attributed to him in this race are perfectly feasible.

NB. Footage of the race clearly does exist. It should be easy to confirm the timings from this ; after all the 300 from home mark is the start line , no complex issues here like the ones that arise when running metric races on 440yard tracks!!

the germans finished 4+s behind ryun, all done in last 300m

that indicates 54s pace for last lap based on their last 300

the actual accounts indicate all were together at bell which dvd owner says was 2'47.7 for ryun

the germans were right there & finished 3'42 for lead german, meaning ~ 54 last lap

this indicates the german(s) ran all of the last lap flat-out

little/no quit from them

the germans finished 4+s behind ryun, all done in last 300m

that indicates 54s pace for last lap based on their last 300

the actual accounts indicate all were together at bell which dvd owner says was 2'47.7 for ryun

the germans were right there & finished 3'42 for lead german, meaning ~ 54 last lap

this indicates the german(s) ran all of the last lap flat-out

little/no quit from them

Someone may have already asked this question, but is it possible that there is existing film of this race? Even if it were not televised, it seems like a significant enough race that some professional film crew would have been there.

Maybe there are some Germans who would know, or could at least guess, who to contact...

I would pay money to see it.