Are indoor tracks faster than outdoor tracks? Nick Willis says yes*. What say you?

Hardloper wrote:

out of town wrote:

Not the ...5k

Yes it is. "Whoops."

Lalang ran 13:08.28 for the indoor record - but he ran 13:00.95 several months later oudoors at Monaco.

The NCAA may not recognize the record because it came after the NCAA championships, but, nevertheless, it provides additional evidence that outdoors is quicker than indoors.

out of town wrote:

Lalang ran 13:08.28 for the indoor record - but he ran 13:00.95 several months later oudoors at Monaco.

The NCAA may not recognize the record because it came after the NCAA championships, but, nevertheless, it provides additional evidence that outdoors is quicker than indoors.

No, it provides evidence that you can run faster several months later into your season.

My $.02 wrote:

El G never came close to his outdoor prs anytime in the indoor season.

El Guerrouj beat his outdoor PR in the only indoor mile he ever did!!!!

Wow.

Hardloper wrote:

My $.02 wrote:

El G never came close to his outdoor prs anytime in the indoor season.

El Guerrouj beat his outdoor PR in the only indoor mile he ever did!!!!

Wow.

I like how you ignore the 1500, or the 800, or the 5000, or the 3000. You're either a troll or really dumb. Also he ran a 3:44.9 mile in 1997, the same year he ran a 3:48 mile indoors. Why was his indoor mile 4 seconds slower? Because indoors is slower.

question regarding the ncaa guys and 4:00

How many of those sub 4's (or equivelant) are done on a proper 200m track?

Hardloper wrote:

out of town wrote:

Lalang ran 13:08.28 for the indoor record - but he ran 13:00.95 several months later oudoors at Monaco.

The NCAA may not recognize the record because it came after the NCAA championships, but, nevertheless, it provides additional evidence that outdoors is quicker than indoors.

No, it provides evidence that you can run faster several months later into your season.

Odd, isn't it, that you cannot produce one mark for an indoor race that is superior to outdoor marks - yet, you fail to draw the conclusion that running on a small track, even with banks, results in a slightly slower time than running on a big track.

It's almost as if you are saying that running a curve is faster than running a straight away, because indoor tracks definitely have a greater percentage of curves in any distance run when compared to an outdoor track.

This is the top list from TFRRS for the 5000m indoors last season:

Almost every one of them was run on an oversize track.

Hardloper wrote:

out of town wrote:

Lalang ran 13:08.28 for the indoor record - but he ran 13:00.95 several months later oudoors at Monaco.

The NCAA may not recognize the record because it came after the NCAA championships, but, nevertheless, it provides additional evidence that outdoors is quicker than indoors.

No, it provides evidence that you can run faster several months later into your season.

The year Lalang ran 13:08, he was burnt come outdoor season. I can't exactly recall what he ran last season, but I don't think he even came close to matching 13:08 indoors

I'm surprised no one has clearly stated that what we really want to know is whether if we could take a person like El G In peak outdoor shape and have him run indoors in August with all the same competitors and incentives, would he run faster? The data say indoors is slower, yes, but we all know people aren't I'm top track shape then nor is there much on the line.

out of town wrote:

Odd, isn't it, that you cannot produce one mark for an indoor race that is superior to outdoor marks - yet, you fail to draw the conclusion that running on a small track, even with banks, results in a slightly slower time than running on a big track.

????

You didn't ask for one. Chris O'Hare's top indoor mark (3:52.98) is superior to all the outdoor marks. So are the next several. You happy?

[quote]out of town wrote:

It's almost as if you are saying that running a curve is faster than running a straight away, because indoor tracks definitely have a greater percentage of curves in any distance run when compared to an outdoor track.

No, I'm saying running a curve with a bank is faster than running one without a bank even if it's a larger curve. Another advantage of having more turns is you have more opportunity to cut off distance - if you run 20 cm from the rail the entire distance, you will have run 2.5m shorter on an indoor track than an outdoor - another possible .38 seconds.

So far we know Nick Willis and Eamonn Coghlan have this same opinion.

Hardloper wrote:

So far we know Nick Willis and Eamonn Coghlan have this same opinion.

Oh, well then clearly the debate is over!

Hardloper wrote:Ventolin, I am just using Occam's razor...

it's a blunt tool

You're saying Rupp was similar to Farah because they train together (how similar we don't know, we just know Farah always beats him), and Farah ran X therefore Galen must run close to X

3:50.92 indoor, 3:52.11 outdoor in a fast race

rupp is a physically superior specimen

i've done enough

he looked 3'31/3'32 on 26'48 day

pretty damn close to his 3'50i

he he was better in '12

Centrowitz was also quite similar to Rupp in time trials, running 3:51.34 indoor, 3:51.73 outdoor, and losing to Mo by almost 5 seconds at Monaco

fetch 26'48 to bring to 1500 idiot

Would Coghlann have run 3:47 in 1983 by your conversion? I doubt it. If he could he would have gone after that instead of the indoor record.

no

eamonn was very capable of 3'47 outdoors in '83

the only problem was he got terrified if ovett/coe/etc were in the race - no problem indoors - they never ran yank indoors

his prelim lines of fit '83 were

~ 49.0 / 1'45.8 ->

3'31.7

3'48.7

4'50.3

7'32.6

13'10.2

~ 48.5 / 1'45.1 ->

3'30.9

3'47.9

4'49.6

7'32.1

13'10.8

~ 48.0 / 1'44.3 ->

3'30.1

3'47.1

4'48.8

7'31.6

13'11.3

he was in likely 3'30-high shape in '83, just terrified of ovett/coe as was moorcroft in '82

( who shouda run 3'30 in oslo-13'00 day )

same principle as

Mo 3'28

off 5k/10k

if you want to be taken seriously, you need to have some tools

find a buck 50c

Couldn't help myself wrote:

Oh, well then clearly the debate is over!

They know more than the collective wisdom of this thread, FWIW.

Hardloper wrote:

Couldn't help myself wrote:

Oh, well then clearly the debate is over!

They know more than the collective wisdom of this thread, FWIW.

Why? Because they picked their parents well?

Couldn't help myself wrote:

Why? Because they picked their parents well?

You're making progress...

coach d wrote:

This is the top list from TFRRS for the 5000m indoors last season:

1 Kithuka, Kennedy SR-4 Texas Tech 13:26.65 Tyson Invitational 02/08/13 02/10/13

2 Estrada, Diego SR-4 Northern Arizona 13:37.01 @ 2013 NAU Tune Up 02/14/13 02/15/13

3 Williams, Kevin SR-4 Oklahoma 13:38.57 UW Husky Classic 02/08/13 02/10/13

3 Kipchirchir, Shadrack SR-4 Oklahoma State 13:38.57 UW Husky Classic 02/08/13 02/10/13

5 Rotich, Anthony SO-2 UTEP 13:38.58 UW Husky Classic 02/08/13 02/10/13

6 Darling, Maverick SR-4 Wisconsin 13:38.71 UW Husky Classic 02/08/13 02/10/13

7 Elkaim, Jeramy Oregon 13:39.35 UW Husky Classic 02/08/13 02/10/13

8 Caldwell, Luke JR-3 New Mexico 13:40.39 UW Husky Classic 02/08/13 02/10/13

9 Ahmed, Mohammed JR-3 Wisconsin 13:40.43 UW Husky Classic 02/08/13 02/10/13

10 Krause, Elliot SR-4 Wisconsin 13:41.67 Notre Dame Alex Wilson 2013 03/01/13 03/02/13

11 Ward, Jared JR-3 BYU 13:41.97 UW Husky Classic 02/08/13 02/10/13

12 Kebenei, Stanley JR-3 Arkansas 13:42.15 UW Husky Classic 02/08/13 02/10/13

13 Lowry, Dan SR-4 Michigan 13:42.48 UW Husky Classic 02/08/13 02/10/13

14 Hill, Ryan SR-4 North Carolina St. 13:43.52 Hoosier Open 12/07/12 12/08/12

15 Aprill, Bobby SR-4 Michigan 13:44.34 UW Husky Classic 02/08/13 02/10/13

16 Thatcher, Tylor JR-3 BYU 13:45.43 UW Husky Classic 02/08/13 02/10/13

Almost every one of them was run on an oversize track.

What I thought - if these guys need an oversized track to run 66 or faster, then I would assume the same about 60 seconds.

I can see a 320 indoor track potentially being as fast as a 400m track due to perfect conditions, but the turns on a standard 200m track make it a lot harder to run fast

RunWild wrote:

What I thought - if these guys need an oversized track to run 66 or faster, then I would assume the same about 60 seconds.

And yet if that were true, coach d would have posted the mile list instead of the 5000m list to prove his point. But he didn't.

How about Don't Be Mean on Here you guys

On the topic of the 5000m. At some speed there has to be an optimal point where the bank of the track by a larger amount than the sharp turn hurts it. I think the sweet spot is somewhere in the ballpark mile pace. So a 200 track could be slower for the 800 or the 5000 but not for the mile/3k.

You have to force yourself inward with each turn, and this force varies inversely with track radius and directly with your speed-squared, and your own weight. You get a certain amount of force back with the bank, but that is constant, varying only with the angle and your own weight.

F_indoor = m*v^2/r - m*G*sin(theta)

F_outdoor = m*v^2/(2r)

So, if the velocity is too high or too low, F_outdoor becomes less than F_indoor, but there is some point in the middle where the shorter track is optimal. Many believe this point, for the angle of most banked tracks, is somewhere around mile pace.