Do you think Alberto would be competitive with the Kenyans if he was a young runner today???

i have al-sal (with a top coach) good for 206-7 marathon, 27 flat for 10k and 13 low for 5k. if he ran today.

if alsal was coaching alsal (the wise one) then i'd give him 204 marathon, 26 high 10k and 125high 5k.

if alsal the dumb was coaching alsal.

then you have a 209 marathon.

al sal was really stupid when he was young...

and amazingly got so much smarter, it is unbelievable.

i have a peak keno at 3:30, in mexico city. and maybe just maybe a 3:29.

i too have ryan the best talent all time along with coe.

both at 324-5 ability. thought both never got close for various reasons. i do have coe at 140 low for the 8. but ryun??? i have him a 1:42 low. now if ryun had a well documented 46.0 400m to his name, then i'd maybe change my opinion.

rod dixon had henry rono and jim ryun as - by far as the most outstanding talents he was exposed to.

Rojo's post was right on the money. Post of day.

Yes, on top of what Ventolin said, Keino was running this THIRD race of the Games when he destroyed world record holder Ryun by the largest margin of victory in Olympic history. Keino got silver in the 5k and dropped out of the 10k with a kidney stone, but came back miraculously for the 15.

Ryun would have lost even at sea level, by less of a margin, probably, but still a loss. He was having an off-year anyway. I think his Olympic time was the fastest he ran all year. Still a great achievement for him, but he was not the greatest championship racer. When he fell in 1972 he was at the back of the pack with only 500 to go. Terrible position. Nobody in his right mind would be there in a race today.

Thread is full of hilarity.

Keino was party to a plan to use Jipcho to burn the kick out of Ryun and others, which Jipcho and the Kenyan coach freely admit - watch "The Olympiad - The Africans". They were scared to death of Ryun's finish, even though Ryun was sub-par from mono and missed training.

Keino claimed to have a kidney stone, then a galls stone, then some other ailment. He ALWAYS had some type of ailment or excuse when he lost (death threats, upset stomach, flu, letting the other runner win in front of his people, on and on), yet Ryun and others get lambasted for the very real problem of racing at altitude. People forget that back in the day, the IAAF etc. had put limits on the amount of time athletes were allowed to train at altitude unless they were from Kenya, Ethiopia, other high altitude regions if the athletes were native to the areas. Officials conveniently looked the other way at Mohammed Gamoudi who out-kicked and out-smarted the Kenyans in the 5k, he literally spent two straight years in the Pyrenees, good for him.

Keino had a shit record against Ryun going into Mexico.

Al Sal today would train differently, and no doubt would have worked on his form. Sure he would be competitive. The jealousy of Rupp on this site, which only increased after his Olympic silver, is palpable. His medal caused more than a bit of cognitive dissonance. You dummies, which most of you are, especially the self-styled intellectuals, you dummies who are brainwashed by the Hillel House boys who are ordered to troll this site and work on your self confidence are pitiful. I know the trolling by those anti-white racists goes on because I was ordered to be part of it during our mandated internet time while in school. This is why I hate the hypocrisy of my former, so-called religion. If you had any idea of the hate carried in the hearts of "devout practitioners" and what they've done to the U.S. and elsewhere as an organized group, you'd be outraged. But none of you have the smarts to realize or see it, and have been brainwashed into complete cowardice and compliance, so you'll merely sit, laugh, and repeat "tolerant" statements you've been taught by your Marxist Masters.

First time I'd heard that one about altitude limitations. Team USA spent months at altitude that year.

And the bottom line is that while Ryun was a tremendous athlete, Keino won that day and won another gold and two more silvers. Can't change the fact.

As for the rest of your post, you are obviously crazy.

rupp-certified saladbar wrote:

But Xenon is right. If Athletics Kenya held an Olympic trials marathon in Berlin, there would be 50 guys together through the half in 1:01:xx, with finishes from 2:03 to 2:40 to DNF.

US marathoners, with the exception of Meb and occasionally Hall (when he races), simply do not race to win. Salazar did. (Although he was racing far, far, far weaker competition.)

Nah, its all in the mind aye? Just go balls out and suddenly you can run a 1.41 800m, 3.28 1500m and a 2.03-4 marathon!

Sure Kenyans got 50 guys, they also have guys with a completely different build. I'm not saying one build is perfect, but are you actually claiming that having a typical western thin build is the same as the kenyan runners build? Its a scientifically proven difference, and one type IS better. Theres no way they are 100% equal.

ventolin^3 wrote:

he shouda been dq'ed as an amateur, he wasn't supposed to take any payment - a chicken being huge dq offense according to ioc/iaaf rules

No he shouldn't, those rules were ridiculous.

Hey, at least there's a Tanzanian guy. Go Tanzania!

that appears an optimistic number but the ncaa app gives it same - 3'42 is a converted 3'25+ as they state

nonsense

the ncaa now no longer have tables

they have an app where you can enter any time upto 0.01s accuracy for about dozen+ cities

there is no "allowance" table about it

it is a formal altitude - sea-level calculator

nonsense

you claim the ncaa app doesn't have good science about it ???

i'm sure the ncaa who have access to ivy league research scientists coudn't produce "good science"

as for the 7'25 conversion uses well-established principles of drafting being worth 1s/lap & generally used empirical conversion of 1s/lap from dirt->synthetic

if you have better conversions, offer them

as for the possibilty of 7'25, you clearly have little clue about distances : if a guy has anywhere between 3'26/3'30 speed & very good endurance ( good enough to hold the 5kwr at one stage ) what 3k time woud anyone be expecting ???

then what do you offer ???

a lot of speculation on these boards is about what guys coud run in ideal races

if you offer nothing on the subject, you are of no use on such threads

as for "newtonian mechanics", i'm pretty damn sure something like that was involved here in predicting 3'28 for him

i suggest you look at hard evidence - the vid rather than "talk"

if ben & kip had some plan, then why on earth did kip start dead fuucking last & then expend a lot of his energy to charge up to get close to ben ???

if you plan is to run a "paced" effort, you follow the pacer from gun, NOT start dead last & have to waste huge amounts of energy to sprint to catch up

i'd imagine that rapid sprint midway in 1st lap may have cost him 0.5 - 1s for his final time

why on earth deliberately throw away 0.5 - 1s when racing the great ryun & umpteenth race of the meet ???

no one in their right mind woud give ryun 0.5 - 1s

ben may have had some plan to do some pacing, but it appears kip was not made aware of this & looks more to have reacted to circumstances presented

collapsing on the track in a slow 10k ( even for altitude ) gives some evidence for a significant ailment

the 29'27 winning time converts to 27'49 at sea-level with ncaa app & adjust further by wind/altitude calculator ->

28'00.07

which is slower than bolotnikov's ole wr from '62 of 28'18 if you offer them 1s/lap from dirt->synthetic

kip was good enough to follow 28-flat pace to the end & not collapse

Critical Thinking wrote:

rupp-certified saladbar wrote:

Four years later, Keino took silver in the Munich 1500 and gold in the steeple. But I guess it was just the Mexico City altitude that helped ol' "second-tier Keino" win in 1968, right?

Moron.

I guess he just didn't have what it takes to hang with Pekka Vasala.

i'd bet good money that "reindeer milk" devotee was in 1'44-flat / 3'32 maybe even 3'31 shape that day

the way he ran that final indicates he was very capable of smashing ryun's 3'33.1wr given a circuit race

keino probably not much better than 3'32/3'33 at that time

there was no way keino was going to outsprint a guy who had almost broken the 800wr prior to games

pekka v ryun wouda been close, but i don't think ryun was better than about 1'45/3'32 at the time in '72 & likely wouda lost as well

Of course he would be competitive. Ask any of the men who knew Al in the 80's. He was known for taking "vitamins", and like the recently busted Kenyans, he would be right up front, running like he stole something.

I would compare him to our own Mo Trafeh. Ok runner, gone to Morrocco, comes back a faster. Four or five months later, he slows down. then it's off to morocco again. Hmmm

But, we are ok with this right?

Salazar did not face the level of competition from the African countries that we have today, period.

Yes, today's African runners would run faster than 2:09:30 in New York with a head wind (it wasn't in their faces the whole way either...I was there 82').

Salazar had what African competition in New York or his 82' Boston victory?

Alberto went over to train with them. He didn't last.

The answer is no.

The three years Alberto won NYCM vs the last six years. Times for the 1st/5th/10th place finishers and the number of Americans/East Africans in the top ten. (you don't want to see the 15th/20th/50th place times -- the depth of the current NYCM fields are abysmal)

Doesn't look like the East Africans changed NYCM much at all does it? The numbers of 2:06 marathoners attempting NYCM recently is impressive -- so is body count of them after being destroyed by the course.

YEAR-1st ----- 5th------ 10th ------ USA/East Africans in the top 10

1982 2:09:29-- 2:12:48-- 2:14:00--- 5----- 0

1981 2:08:13-- 2:11:36-- 2:13:23--- 3----- 0

1980 2:09:41-- 2:13:20-- 2:14:13--- 5----- 0

2011 2:05:06-- 2:08:26-- 2:12:26--- 2----- 4

2010 2:08:14-- 2:11:30-- 2:14:07--- 2----- 5

2009 2:09:15-- 2:12:14-- 2:14:39--- 6----- 1

2008 2:08:43-- 2:13:33-- 2:16:37--- 4----- 1

2007 2:09:04-- 2:12:25-- 2:15:32--- 0----- 4

2006 2:09:58-- 2:11:24-- 2:13:13--- 6----- 1

Speedo Split wrote:

Salazar did not face the level of competition from the African countries that we have today, period.

Yes, today's African runners would run faster than 2:09:30 in New York with a head wind (it wasn't in their faces the whole way either...I was there 82').

Salazar had what African competition in New York or his 82' Boston victory?

Alberto went over to train with them. He didn't last.

The answer is no.

See malmo's rather interesting post above, comparing the number of Americans vs. Africans in the top 10 then vs now.

And while we're at it, ever heard of Sulieman Nyambui, Henry Rono, Michael Musyoki? Those guys were pretty darn good.

Yes, I see his post.

I ran back then. I know who all of the guys are. I watched Nyambui win the NCAA Indoor 2 mile twice. Once against Doug Padilla and it was the best event of the whole meet...the Detroit News agreed (you had to be there). I've met both Musyoki and Rono on more than one ocassion, but they weren't marathoners. With that said I know Henry ran at least one half later in his career, I believe outkicking Rodgers.

If I'm wrong, correct me, but I was under the assumption that we're talking about marathons. Everyone that you mentioned are outstanding runners, but they aren't marathoners. In addition, I thought this also had to do with how fast they were going today versus Al back then, no?

Irreleveant, Malmo's a smart guy and he's been there, but I stand by statement that Alberto could not hold his own against them today. The amount of African runners then versus now in the marathon is a big, big difference.

Yes, there weren't a lot of Africans at the top of marathoning in the early 80s, but at the same time the Brits, Irish, Portuguese, and Mexicans were and much stronger than today.

A couple pages ago one of the posters had it about right. Salazar at 24-25 (wouldn't have had his debut at 22) coached by Salazar now would still be competitive but not the best in the world. I'd put him ahead of Ryan Hall's peak. 2:05 on a legit course, 27:00+/- or so for 10K, and 13:00+/- for 5K.

This is the empirical evidence you were looking for. How would Alberto Salazar would have fared against today’s 2:04-05-06 runners. Alberto takes 3rd on the raw numbers, most likely takes 2nd in a real race.

Same course, same weather conditions.

1982 No 2:04 marathoners in the field. No 2:05s. No 2:06s. Not even a 2:07 or a 2:08

2013 All of those 2:06 guys thought the Pulaski Bridge was Brokeback Mountain.

Year .... 1982 2013

TempS.... 47... 47

TempF.... 50... 48

DewPt.... 30... 32

WindSt.... 14... 14

Wind1h ....23... 17

Wind2h ....21... 16

Starbucks....2 .... 17,562

HM split 1:04:55 1:05:06

1st 2:09:29 2:08:24

2nd 2:09:33 2:09:16

3rd 2:11:54 2:09:45

10th 2:14:00 2:12:03

20th 2:16:33 2:22:48

30th 2:18:10 2:27:37

40th 2:19:03 2:32:08

50th 2:20:30 2:34:56

100th 2:25:45 2:42:05

POD/EOT