Getting real tired of these 13:0X races with 53-54 second last laps

I now have a mental association between you and cream. Now I'm getting turned on.

I'm going to the pool to cool down and do some laps to work off my lunch.

I want to see human beings push the limits.I don't want to see an exercises in mediocrity which is the view of the majority of chowderheads, BTW.

table wrote:

I completely disagree. I love the intense final 800m when they trade leads. It is intense as heck and you have no idea who is going to take the win.

Break it up wrote:

Nobody in currently in the world can run 7:20 for 3k, 12:37 for 5k, and 26:19 for 19k. Hopefully those times will be attainable again and WR attempts will be back.

This is what drugs do a sport like track and field.

so is 7:30 indoors and 26:48 by a white boy who never won an ncaa title till his 5th year also what drugs do to a sport or is that just American exceptionalism?

eeeeeee wrote:

Break it up wrote:

Nobody in currently in the world can run 7:20 for 3k, 12:37 for 5k, and 26:19 for 19k. Hopefully those times will be attainable again and WR attempts will be back.

This is what drugs do a sport like track and field.

so is 7:30 indoors and 26:48 by a white boy who never won an ncaa title till his 5th year also what drugs do to a sport or is that just American exceptionalism?

AGREED

george oscar bluth wrote:

Sorry JR, the point is to win the race, not run as fast as you can.

So, you're going to run slower, while I'm running faster, and you think you're going to somehow catch me at the end????

You're delusional.

Plus I'm trained for a fast pace, and you're trained for a kick at the end of a slow race, so you're not in condition to keep up with me even if you tried.

george oscar bluth wrote:

You all can keep winning and coming up with what you think are oh so clever ways to eliminate sit and kick races, or have more time trial races, or whatever it is you want to do, but it is a waste of time. Things will remain the same, as they should.

It is fine with me that you keep dropping off of the back.

People are raving about 53+ sec last laps, but how quickly we forget:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2rHmSKqs2w

The Waterboy wrote:It's also ridiculous that Bekele has the 5000m record. He's primarily a 10K guy. He only has a 3:32 1500m best. Someone with a 3:30 or lower PB should have the 3000m and 5000m records

he didn't run a 1500 in his wr years of '04/'05

he almost certainly was a 3'30 guy in those years

even his 3'32pb in '07 had some rubbish pacing with something like a 58s lap before the bell or 800 - 1200

he was worth well below 3'32 even that day at even-pace, when not a peak year

eeeeeee wrote:

Break it up wrote:

Nobody in currently in the world can run 7:20 for 3k, 12:37 for 5k, and 26:19 for 19k. Hopefully those times will be attainable again and WR attempts will be back.

This is what drugs do a sport like track and field.

so is 7:30 indoors and 26:48 by a white boy who never won an ncaa title till his 5th year also what drugs do to a sport or is that just American exceptionalism?

It's just exceptionalism, no naitonality attached. When you run 13:38 for 5000m as an eighteen year-old, you're something exceptional.

You need to remember that some of these teams these men are trying for are decided largely or entirely on season bests. So if you think you can get away and safely put the field away by running hard, then you do it. We saw it in Paris last year, we saw it a bit in Rome last month.

But if there are some real contenders in the field and they haven't fallen off early, then you taking up the job of the pacemaker in the later stages runs the risk that the times will end up being very quick and you may well end up fourth or fifth in a deep race. So now you're your country's number four or five man on time with limited opportunities to get into the top three and the standard of that top three is much higher thanks to your efforts.

So if you're already among the top fastest leading into a major championship, you have no interest in making it especially quick unless you can well confident of winning. If you're not, then give no help at all keeping the pace up, and kick like made so that no one approaches your season best.

The good news is neither the 5,000 nor the 10,000 is likely to be a sit-and-kick.

Having been OBLITERATED by Lagat in a sit-and-kick at USATF, Rupp knows that his sit-and-kick strategy won't get him far there. He is wisely putting in training for an actual strength race, explaining the ducked Diamond League series.

This guy just won't quit. We're not talking about high school dual meets here, J.R., we're talking about world class racing. EVERYONE is trained for a fast pace. I don't know where you got this idea that the people who can kick are incapable of running fast times but it's absurd. When Bekele would blast away from the field in the last lap of a 10k he was doing so primarily from strength. There is a reason people don't take it hard from the gun, and the reason is because it's a stupid tactic unless you are head and shoulders above the rest of the field or if you're an aerobic monster with zero speed. Find me some good examples over the last 20 years of people winning world championship races by going hard from the gun. You'll be hard pressed to find any.

If you set a fast pace, there won't be a lot of "bumping" or "running extra distance" behind you because the pack will be nice and strung out and ready to swallow you up when the real racing starts. Try to make your lack of racing experience a little less obvious.

Giant Johnson wrote:

If you set a fast pace, there won't be a lot of "bumping" or "running extra distance" behind you because the pack will be nice and strung out and ready to swallow you up when the real racing starts. Try to make your lack of racing experience a little less obvious.

You mean like this?

Or like this?

Whoops????? What happened here?

There's a great photo of Viren bunching up the entire field like an accordian and having them trip over each other, while he ran 5:01 for the last 2000m.

The person in front controls the race and the pace.

You are a riot. Let me know when I can watch you race on TV.

Giant Johnson wrote:

it's a stupid tactic unless .... you're an aerobic monster with zero speed.

I can't believe I'm agreeing with JR, but your quote is exactly what he's saying. Everyone knows they can't out kick Farah in a slow race (I.e., compared to Farah they are aerobic monsters with zero speed), so why do they keep trying to out kick him? Their only hope is to take it out hard and win by a fast time or by a fast time with a kick. Slow time and kick is not a good choice based on results thus far.

They are not aerobic monsters compared to Farah, though. He's the best runner in the world right now. Whether the race is fast or slow he is probably going to be the one winning it. The advantage of a slow race is that you'll have a better chance of getting Farah into a box late and delay his ability to react to a kick. But if a change in tactics is in order I guarantee you that whoever does the work to set a fast pace isn't going to be the one winning the race. It will be one of his teammates sitting back in the pack. The reason for that should be obvious but our boy J.R. doesn't seem to understand why.

So your evidence to back up your claim that running from the front is the best racing tactic is a doped up guy from 40 years ago. Nice.

GoodTimes wrote:

Forget about the aerodynamic penalty of leading vs drafting?

J.R. wrote:

Forget about the leader controlling the pace, controlling the pace, getting bumped around in the pace, dealing with the other runners and subsequent changes in pace, wasting energy, running extra distance, none of which the leader has to deal with?

This is a great point by JR.

Lagat led most of the USATF 5000. Did it look like he paid an "aerodynamic penalty" to you? No. In normal conditions, the benefit of drafting is much more psychological than than aerodynamic. A mentally strong runner is not going to be affected by "breaking the wind" because there is almost no resistance to still air.

Meanwhile, look at Rupp in the 5,000. By staying "aerodynamically" smart in the middle of the pack, he stumbled and was clipped repeatedly. He could easily have fallen, which we know from his DL DNFs he doesn't handle well. He had a total hissyfit at other runners.

All of that energy wasted Rupp more than frontrunning hurt Lagat when it came to the bell.