I think everything is legit with this athlete and the race, but the start 'from the video' did look like someone jumped and everyone else went off of that and the starter didn't call the race back. Was this perhaps a low level race with out pressure sensitive blocks?
Of course, typical sprintgeezeer, says he will wait for the dust to settle yet he's already thrown out the accusations...
Personally I think he is legit, and he doesn't look like he's 30...
Early 20s at most if he is lying about his age
d
Sprintgeezer wrote:
I can live with facts that do not seem to be too inconsistent.
For instance, I could live with the suggestion that he is 17 years old--but then I couldn't live with him having gone 10.01 (+0.9) for a world lead at the end of April.
Something's fishy in Japan, and it's not the sushi.
OTOH, if this was all legit, it is truly amazing.
We will see.
Have you considered that the problem may be with you? You are laying out all of these possible problem areas and do not mention that one possible issue may be that you can't believe it because the athlete in question is Asian. Prejudice against Asians would certainly explain the tone of the rest of your arguments.
He looks 18-20. I know a 30 year old asian guy who looks 20 maybe a year or two older than this guy.
They do live to 90 years on average so its a little weird seeing an older looking 17 y/o in Japan.
why hasnt anybody mentioned what really is happening in sprinting nowadays .
with advent of sarms .
majority of them are being made in bulk in china ,
so japan can thank chinese for this !!!!
get a fast youth sprinter add some sarms s4 and can have a really fastjunior sprinter with serious training and time ,
it is the consistancy to be able run close to 10 flat that
is a sign to me ,like lemaitre before and the jamicans and carribeans ,and now everyone else .the asians besides liu xiang are over nearly a decade behind in sarms use anyway .
where did Zhang Peimeng find that .2 second since last year
might be a one off but time will tell ,if the consistancy
follows
i can easily buy s4 online or a certain lgd4033 if want to bulk up .
This thread has gotten really negative...
LMAO that the Japanese use PEDs!
Completely antithetical to their culture.
There are certainly outliers but not the norm like a place like Texas and Louisiana where even mediocre x-country runners in high school use EPO during counties and half the high school football team is on steroids.
Come to Texas, every athlete of note is on steroids, the students are on adderall, the doctors are on ritalin, everybody is doped up! Compare that to Japan, where people believe in hard, grinding work and think of PEDs as a moral failing.
Average Japanese is a different type of human being with much higher standards of self-expectations.
just on the eye test, he doesn't look like he uses ped's if you look at his upper body.
i'm surprised a 17-year-old hasn't run under 10 sec already, if the best drugs programs are in north america.
Tim Montgomery ran 9.96 as a junior.
But the track was 3.7 centimeters short.
Would have been 9.97.
Mr. Obvious wrote:WR aren't a moral item and nobody cares who you consider better.
moron
a wr is just a measure of a guy's talent
you of course remember seeing darrel cruise to that 10.01 with at least 1 gear left to spare - the most awesome run from a sprinter i ever saw considering his age - 10.01 in those days meant something
if he'd run that race flat-out, it was at worst 9.95
that is the measure of the guy's talent at the time & that meant morally the wr shoud be at worst 9.95
this kid won't have surpassed darrel's "talent" until i see a 9.94 at worst from him
It means more to the evil military Junta that runs China. For propaganda reasons China would love to have runner be the first East Asian sub 10. Also something is up on the PED front as a bunch of athletes from countries that have no to marginal traditions in the sprinting are running 10.0X. A Moroccan did this a few years ago, an Egyptian and now two East Asians and a European dipped under this barrier. Something smells as fishy as Jamaican snappah fish....
VanWederson wrote:
Average Japanese is a different type of human being with much higher standards of self-expectations.
You have been reading too many James Clavell novels. The average Japanese is as lazy or more lazy than the average American.
Sprintgeezer wrote:
The only great short guys have been Cason and Frater, if memory serves.
Fasuba's 9.85 or whatever it was was bogus.
Off the top of my head I can't think of anyone else who has been super-short and substantially sub-10. maybe out
Here is a vid of Kiryu, with slow-mo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy-BuDc1_woAlso, the pink shorts comment was classic.
off the top.
aldo bolton is listed at 5 9.
ben johnson 5 10
don quarrie 5 9
tyson gay 5 10
i too think fasuba at doha was fiction.
the japanese guys in that race, the biggest one might have been 6 foot 2? our man might list at 5:11 one day.
height and weight data from new iaaf new is not available.
as well as historical info. more fluff and less data. iaaf get your act together.
when it comes to short sprinters, pretty much are within a couple of inches within 5:11.
regarding the wind in the junior record race, it was windy - but nothing like mexico city which assisted the fictional bob beamon jump. check the vid, experienced judges will be able to estimate from the flags blowing and half mast.
Sprintgeezer wrote:
I still think he looks older than 17, I thought his lean was pretty decent, and I never discount the possibility of doping, in anyone, in any culture, because there are always outliers, even in Japan.
Japan probably keeps better birth records than the U.S. I know they keep better records of who lives where. This isn't Kenya we're talking about. If the kid's school says he's 17, he's 17.
And about Japanese not doping, give me a break. The same argument could be made for all christians who get caught doping and lying about it, even though "Thou shalt not bear false witness."
Now you're just incoherent. Name me one Japanese T&F athlete busted for doping.
Don't underestimate the rivalry between Japan and China. It is more than that, it is hatred, pure and simple. Don't think that Japanese sprinting doesn't see Bingtian Su and Chinese sprinting as a serious threat. . . .But there is NO WAY they would tolerate losing to a Chinese, if they could at all help it. I'm not saying that would inevitably lead to doping, but it could very well lead to superior training, earlier development, better selection, and all the other things it takes to produce excellence.
Yes, so what exactly is the problem?
I'm loving this thread.
Some things--
I have no prejudice against Asians. Like I said, NOBODY has done this kind of thing before. I call out everybody who is scamming--black Jamaicans, white Italians, brown Algerians, and yellow Japanese.
Japan is an interesting place, socio-culturally. You can forget about "traditional" values in Japan at the moment, they are reserved for certain national holidays. There are certainly officially agreed-upon standards of conduct, along with some great Japanese words to describe them, like otsukiai--but they certainly do not apply to every echelon of Japanese society.
There are a lot of desperate Japanese. Many will cling to the standards in their desperation, some will not. They even have crime, and gangs, believe it or not, and the system of crime, police, and media is well-integrated, and often centers around prostitution, often involving women of foreign nationality.
There is a lot about Japan that has to be questioned. A view of a rigid adherence to a narrow range of moral strictures is ineffective to describe the totality of Japanese culture. There is a serious underclass in Japan, and it engages in all manner of illegal and immoral activity.
It is EASILY possible that one or more Japanese athlete is/are doping.
Now I'm not saying they ARE, I'm saying something doesn't add up. A guy around 17.35 years old goes 10-flat? Do you guys even know how fast that is? I'm guessing not.
I'm saying that it strains credibility--first of all, he's really, really, young. Younger than anybody else ever has been for that kind of time. Demps was more than one year and one month older, and Brown was more than one year and six months older, only a month-and-a-half shy of his 19th birthday.
Second, he's short, really short. Even Cason was an inch taller, and Cason had long legs for his height. Fasuba's PR of 9.85, for the same height, was totally and completely bogus; his actual legitimately-measured PR was 10.07 (-0.5). Holliday was down there, and legit. It is undeniable that it is more difficult for really short guys (5'5"/5'6") to go that fast, than it is for longer-legged guys. And again, all those other short guys were men when they ran those times, not boys like Kiryu.
Third of all, in early season? Sure, solid times have been laid down by others in early season in years past, but it is the exception rather than the norm. Will he still peak this year? What will you guys be saying when he is sub-10?
I remain skeptical. Either or both the timing, his age, or his PED status are likely suspect, IN MY OPINION.
I need to see more from Kiryu. Yes, I know these guys have amazing turnover--that's what you get when you have short legs and train turnover. But that doesn't get you to 10-flat earlier than anybody else ever has, unless he has better turnover than anybody else ever has. Does he? I don't know.
At least with a junior Bolt there was an argument to be made that he was special based on his height--not a good argument, as there have been and continue to be other equally-tall juniors who are nowhere as good as he was, but an argument nonetheless.
Is Kiryu special in any way? Better turnover? IDK. Better start? Certainly not. Better drive phase? Certainly not. He does have a very nice top-end form, although it is not as laid-out as it could be, but that's not enough for me, given the apparent weaknesses in his race. Where he is strong is in mid-range acceleration.
Where was he indoors? Did he do anything at all?
I need to see more. I remain skeptical--not disbelieving, but skeptical as to the simultaneous truth of all the required elements.
Drugs--
I remember the Egyptian guy, Seoud--also the Turkish guy, Guliyev.
Seoud I was never concerned about, his performance history is very credible. It was nice to see an Egyptian competing well in the 100m.
Guliev dropped .3 one year, then .3 the very next to 10.08, before settling around 10.15-10.20 in 2010 and 2011...and he doesn't even have a listed result in 2012. IIRC he was having some personal issues or something. He bothered me a bit, but then he dropped off the face of the earth during the Olympic year.
I think you are spot on about the Chinese propaganda value, however. lol, look for a potentially fake sub-10 100m time coming out of China soon!
zatopek3210 wrote:
VanWederson wrote:Average Japanese is a different type of human being with much higher standards of self-expectations.
You have been reading too many James Clavell novels. The average Japanese is as lazy or more lazy than the average American.
Not so sure about that, Zato. I moved back to Tokyo (Chiba Pref.) last year after 20 years in the States, and it's been a huge relief not to have to deal with the nauseating stupidity and laziness of employees at companies like Comcast and Verizon and [name of any U.S. bank here]. Customer service standards are much, much higher here, as far as I'm concerned.
You live down near Fukuoka, as I recall, no?
Sprintgeezer wrote:
Japan is an interesting place, socio-culturally. You can forget about "traditional" values in Japan at the moment, they are reserved for certain national holidays.
Nonsense. Many useful aspects of the culture carry great weight in Japanese society even today.
It is EASILY possible that one or more Japanese athlete is/are doping.
Of course it's POSSIBLE, maybe even "EASILY possible."
But like I said before, name one Japanese T&F athlete who was actually busted for doping. I can't think of any. And Japan certainly hasn't had a shameful spectacle anything like BALCO or Lance Armstrong or the Russian corruption.
Second, he's short, really short.
Houston McTear was 5'7", and he ran 10.16 and a hand-timed 9.0 for 100 yards in high school. Kiryu is 5'9'' (175 cm), 66 kg.
Where was he indoors? Did he do anything at all?
Japan doesn't seem to have much of an indoor season. They used to have some international-class indoor meets (e.g., in Osaka), but they seem to have gone by the wayside.
Bob--
Yes, they have an impeccable testing record. Even in baseball, where they started testing in '07, only 3 guys have tested positive, none of whom have been Japanese players.
So, if I assume he's clean, and that he is only 17.35 years old, I would have to be very skeptical about the accuracy of the timing.
Have it your way.
I'm not saying that Japanese sprinting is not great--it most certainly is, and there is a rich heritage in place. In fact, I think that I suggested earlier on this board somewhere that Japan has possibly the single best clean sprint tradition in the world--not necessarily the best individual clean performers, but the best overall clean sprint program.
But I still need to see more. What's that trite saying?
Trust, but verify.
Not a great saying, but it will suffice.